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It’s been 3 months now since I have heard from anyone from the lds church since I emailed the bishop and my home teacher the John Dehlin utube video of “Why people leave the church.” Now the HPGL leader calls my husband and asks if he and the bishop can come over. I don’t want to be there as I am afraid I may loose it. Wonder what they want to talk to my husband about? Wonder if they are going to ask if we want our names taken off the church records if we no longer believe? Anyway, just pray for us as I have had a rough week. Went to the dentist for 2 crowns on upper molars and they found an abscess and after two hours of that had to go the next day for two hours of root canals. Have had headaches, teethaches, neck, shoulder pain etc. Then I fell and sprained my knee and am sore as heck. We went to another Alpha meeting Monday night from the Christ Community church where they have question and answers nights for those seeking answers to religious questions. We talked about the sinners prayer and accepting Christ. They did say it cannot just be a prayer one uses for a magic potion and poof you are saved, but has to be sincere and committed to coming to Christ. My husband gave them a run for their money and asked alot of tough questions. He told them he had sincerely said that exact prayer and wanted to follow Christ but did not feel saved or have a testimony of Christ after that. He asked them if a one year old who did not understand who Jesus is or could say the sinners prayer was going to Hell. These Christians all assume the Bible is the word of God and the only word and my husband challeneged them on it. He also told the pastor who got stuff wrong on the lds church that he was wrong on 3 points about what he said the Mormons believe. I guess we are considered difficult cases no matter where we go.
Bridget
bridget_night wrote:I guess we are considered difficult cases no matter where we go.
You’re not a difficult case here among friends!! We like ya!
I’m guessing the HPGL and Bishop are visiting to preach to you and your husband, and try to get you to commit to staying “in the fold”.
You know, I actually think its cool you’ve got leaders who care enough to take time to go do that. Regardless of whether they can understand where you’re at or see your side of things, I hope it is uplifting and charitable and you feel they really care about you and take the visit for what its worth. Remember, you don’t have to agree with them to listen to their words, and you don’t need to get them to agree with you…we’re all just brothers and sisters trying to find God and happiness in life as best we can. Please let us know how it goes. I’m interested to see how it turns out.
Thanks Heber. I sure appreciate your wisdom and support. Well, they never showed up or called to reschedule. Strange. Bridget Hmmm. Not nice, but maybe there were extenuating circumstances. I hope it goes well for you, whatever happens. Thanks Doug. Still no call about why they never showed up. And we are not going to call them. This group is really one of the few places I found that people really care about your difficulties with religious matters. bridget_night wrote:And we are not going to call them.
I wouldn’t call them either. My initial post was that it shows they care if they are willing to make the effort to come talk.Unfortunately, it sends the opposite message when they don’t. Sorry about that…its too bad…I was interested to hear what they had to say to you. It doesn’t sound from your post that you are holding a grudge about it, though. It is what it is. Thanks for your example.
Oh well. The good thing is, you don’t need them to feel close to God, you’re on your own journey, regardless of what others do (or don’t do) along the way.
Thank You Heber. Why is it so hard to feel close to God sometimes? I think of that scripture, “Now we see through a glass Darkly.” I feel like I am looking through a muddy windshield or wild rainstorm driving and can hardly see sometimes. What is that scripture suppose to mean for us? bridget_night wrote:What is that scripture suppose to mean for us?
The New International Version has is as “we see but a poor reflection, as in a mirror”. 1 Cor 13 is probably my favorite chapter of scripture ever. I like that Paul recognized that to ‘know in part’ was not only okay, but maybe even part of the divine plan.doug wrote:bridget_night wrote:What is that scripture suppose to mean for us?
The New International Version has is as “we see but a poor reflection, as in a mirror”. 1 Cor 13 is probably my favorite chapter of scripture ever. I like that Paul recognized that to ‘know in part’ was not only okay, but maybe even part of the divine plan.My favorite too Doug. More and more I am realizing that trial and error is part of the divine plan. This also makes the atonement more understandable because we are going to just make alot of mistakes. I used to beat myself up alot if I made a mistake (like I was a bad person). I was 30 years old when I gave myself permission to make mistakes and that falling down and standing back up again was part of the growing process. Still no calls from the bishop or HPGL.
Well, the HPGL just called. Apparently, he had totally forgotten the appointment until the bishop today at church asked him why he did not call him to go with him this past Thursday. I think he was hoping my husband had forgotten too but my husband told him no, we had been waiting for him. He apologized all over the place and asked if they could come this Thurs. My husband said yes, it was ok. Mainly because he has forgotten appointments too. Still don’t know what they will have to say to us. Sounds to me like a routine visit to a family they have concerns about. If it was any sort of a big deal he wouldn’t have forgotten. Yes, one evening the EQ Pres came over with a member of the stake high council. It was nothing, they like to visit all the families on occasion. Thanks for those comments. Only thing is I had sent his wife this email Oct. 2 in response to an email she had sent me (read from bottom up). I imagine she showed it to him. Cynthia,
Thank you for thinking of me and reaching out. You do seem like a genuinely caring person. I know you mean well and I am glad you want to be my friend no matter what. Yes, there is much good about the church and it has been a meaningful part of my life as well as my husbands. This is why leaving the church was not a easy decision. We are not wimpy people who take things lightly. But, it seems few people in the church really treat us with having intelligence and respect in trying to find out and discuss our concerns. Few care to find out why we have left the church. We have no desire to shake anyone elses faith but we feel like our experiences should be respected and listened to. This is why I had hoped you and your husband would look at the link I sent you Sept. 15th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs by John Dehlin (why people leave the church) There seems to be nowhere in the church that members can talk about these distrubing issues.This is not anti-Mormon link. It is put together by an active lds member related to Ezra Taft Bensen. It is all information taken from Ensigns, church history, Journal of Discouse and lds sourses. It just explains why good people leave and have doubts and how to treat inactives or those who have left without insulting them. This is not an easy thing and is huge in our lives so I would appreciate if you watched it all the way through. It is so important to not judge or condemn people but really understand those who are inactive or have left.
Bottom line though is that Moroni’s promise did not work for my husband after 30 years of sincerely trying and even though I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and restored many good things, I cannot ignore some horrible things he did and believe he was a fallen prophet. I have served many callings in the church (My two year mission in Austria, years of teaching in RS. 4 years gospel doctrine teacher, 4 years gospel essentials class) and no one wanted the church to be more true than me. But it has also caused me to investigate the church deeply. Going on a European mission was very hard and caused me to question my faith more than ever. It has been shocking for me to learn of the falliables of early and present church leaders. This information is not from anti-Mormon websites or people. I have never paid much attention to them as they have a bias as did the Godmakers movie presented. Anyway, I am going to cut and paste to links that are not put out by anti-Mormon groups which are referenced well.
Here is a good link to a synopsis of JS’s wives and their stories. These were noble women who deserve to have statues just like Emma’s in Nauvoo and Temple square. They deserve to be mentioned in Sunday school manuals. Now only first wives are mentioned.
http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/ Here is a sample story of one wife that touched me:
Lucy Walker:
The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. Later that summer Lucy’s
Mother contracted malaria and died, leaving ten children. Her Father, John, was
heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”. Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came
to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife.
You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have Just such a family as I
could love. My house shall be their home…place the little ones with kind friends, and the
four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children…”
The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year
mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my
hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being
sepparated from the little ones…” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the
Prophets house.
While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph
Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been
commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment
knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me…He asked me if I
believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’…He fully Explained
to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be
restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing
to my father’s house.”
“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I
speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured
beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive
me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother…Why – Why Should I be chosen
from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother
to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup
pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”
Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would
acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an
ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide
this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” Lucy
said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was
called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in
disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my
dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was
unbearable.” Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a
deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the
entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and
irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural
mariage’” and “I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabited
with him as such.” Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St.
Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not
present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at
all.” Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs,
-at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to
establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”
When Joseph was killed in June 1843, Lucy married Heber C. Kimball. Explaining the
relationship, Lucy said, “…The contract when I married Mr. Kimball was that I should be
his wife for time, and time only, …and in the resurrection [he] would surrender me, with
my children, to Joseph Smith.”
Brigham Young taught that “no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into
the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.” As Heber lay on his
death bed he called Lucy to his side and hoping to win favor with Joseph Smith, asked
her, “What can you tell Joseph when you meet him? Cannot you say that I have been kind
to you as it was possible to be under the circumstances? I know you can, and am
confident you will be as a mediator between me and Joseph.
There are so many other experiences we have had like negative experiences we had in the temples which did not help. No one is really willing to listen to us or care about what we have gone through. When I had called your husband this past March from Davenport Iowa to help us unload our large Uhaul, he assumed the worst of us and like we were dead beat muchers. Instead I was given an interrogation and treated like me and my family were all screwed up. This was the straw that broke the camels back for me. When I told your husband that I was the only active member in my family, there was NO empathy or caring how difficult this was for me. There was no, ‘Of course we will help you and show your family how unconditionally loving the church is and set a good example for them”. Only a condemning interrogation that unless we were active, strong testimony contributing members, we would not get any help. No trying to understand why my husband and I were having doubts and to come in and talk about our struggles with the gospel. He was only judgmental and condeming. My husband talked to your husband for 45 minutes on the phone and again no real empathy or trying to understand him. Just letting him know that his experiences could never have happened. The Port Orange Christian Church and Nazerence church immeadiately reached out to us, no questions asked with more love than I have experienced in a long while. The main thing that matters to me right now is my relationship with Jesus Christ.
I think you are a very good teacher and do like your personality. I really do appreciate your reaching out. Thanks again for writing.
Bridget
Original Message
From: Cynthia Webb
To: Erika Henderson
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:38 AM
Subject: General Conference is this weekend
I know that you have said that you are no longer going to our Church, but I would hope that if you get a chance that you would watch Conference. Perhaps there will be something there that will answer your concerns. It is on BYUTV and well as live streaming on the lds.org website at noon and at 2pm today and Sunday. When it came on today (it’s on right now), I thought of you. I must remind Bridget!
I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the fullness of the gospel. I don’t know exactly what your concerns are, but I hope that you can work through them. Don’t let some minutia get in the way of the big picture. There are always going to be detractors, bringing out something to challenge your faith. If you want to know about anything, it’s best to go to the source and the source is the Church itself–not someone/something else. If you really want to work it out, you need to be attending Church and studying the scriptures. At one time the Church was important enough to you to go on a mission. It was important enough to be sealed to your husband. If you do decide to attend another church, no one thinks any less of you, but I personally am sad that you are giving away so much. I only say this because I care about you and your happiness. I will always be here for you. I didn’t get to know you well, but I felt that you were a kindred spirit and was looking forward to getting to know you better.
You are a good person and made an impact when you did attend. We miss your cheerful personality at Relief Society. Even if you don’t come to Church, would it be okay for me to let you know when we are having Relief Society activities? We’d love to have you come.
Again, I don’t know you that well, but I truly care about you and would like to be your friend regardless of your decision about which Church to attend.
Sincerely,
Cynthia
Bridget, I am sorry your experiences in your new ward haven’t been very rewarding. I think we are in a similar situation where we get visits from the visiting teachers whenever we take a break from the church (though not otherwise). 🙄 In trying to familiarize myself with the group and read old postings (mostly in introductions), I have acquired a mental picture of many of the participants here. (they even have their own voices, I realized that Mr. Curie speaks in my head with an Austrian accent-
:ugeek: very scientific like:ugeek: )Quote:Roy previously wrote about Bridget: “In learning something of your own “Hero’s Journey,” I am impressed at what a harrowingly beautiful path you have walked. I truly admire the person you are and how you have used your gift to help others.”
I guess it is just a little startling that this same thoughtful and courageous Bridget can be dismissed as someone who is living beneath her potential simply because she isn’t occupying a pew in the LDS chapel on Sunday.
Quote:Bridget wrote: “Many members cannot handle questioners like us because they don’t want their own faith shaken so they distance themselves from you. They do not know what to do with people like my husband who never got the answer to Moroni’s promise in the BofM or had negative experiences in the temple, or when giving priesthood blessings. They only want to hear the success stories and don’t know what to do with those who have not had success with the formula. It’s like with this new bishop we have now that told my husband that it was not possible that he did not get an answer to the promise in Moroni. To most TBM’s there is only one right answer.”
Yet, I see myself in these TBM’s Bridget is dealing with. I too have grumbled about helping people to move out of our ward that I had never seen at church. When someone’s kids fell away or did foolish things, I remember trying to lay the sin at the foot of the parents. What had they done to send their kid off course? Is that a Christ like attitude for me to have? No! Can it be hurtful? Yes! Have I learned? I am working on it. I am trying to be more understanding of people whose life-experiences have them seeing the world differently than I do.
“If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each person’s life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.”
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Quote:Stealth Bishop wrote: “I’m sure we would all be shocked to learn what goes on in the hearts and minds of the people we come in contact with. I would hope if they knew what I was going through they would be compassionate and see that I am trying to do the best I can.”
I loved so much how Poppyseed phrased this thought.
Quote:Poppyseed wrote: “There are painful people in my life whose own issues seem to give them permission to persecute. And too often I am one of those painful people too as I spend too much time in painful thought processes whether it is perfectionism or controlling others and outcomes or unloving reactionary judgments. I guess from a more global view I think there are all kinds of racisms that happen when people haven’t learned all the lessons of love… loving themselves first and then loving others too. But then I look at myself and I know I have my own configuration of enlightenment and ignorance and then I somehow feel empathy for all of us as we try to navigate this earth existence. I know I need patience. I guess I believe everyone else does too. Love yourself and take care during this time of emotional upheaval. Maybe if we all tried to love each other without focusing on all the weakness we would be inadvertently healing them.”
Thank you Roy. I really appreciate your thoughts and need to be more understanding and forgiving of those who are intolerant of me.
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