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First, I am Shawn. That is my actual given name and the name I used with my first stayLDS account. While using that account, I wrote things that caused me to lose all credibility here, so I started a new account. I am sorry for deceiving everyone. My world is an elaborate sand castle that is crumbling away.
We have read that “Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion….” Well, maybe that statement cannot be taken seriously because it has not gone through the process to qualify it to be officially binding. Besides, things that are said to never have been doctrine were repeated by many General Authorities. Following are some waves destroying my sand castle:
RACE ISSUES
Quote:Brigham Young: “In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the ‘servant of servants,’ and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them.”
John Taylor: “When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth”
B.H. Roberts: “That the negro is markedly inferior to the Caucasian is proved both craniologically and by six thousand years of planet-wide experimentation.”
Joseph Fielding Smith: “Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.”
Bruce R. McConkie: “The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom…”
Mark E. Petersen: “If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I read to you, they receive the curse. There isn’t any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there?…”
Those remarks really don’t mesh well with 2 Nephi 26:33 (“…he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free…and all are alike unto God…). It just doesn’t make sense! People were denied the Priesthood and temple blessings for over a century probably without instructions from God.SEXISMIt’s quite apparent that men and women have different roles in the Church. It has always been taught that the man is the head of the marriage and of the household, but not anymore. I just don’t know what to think about that. The very covenants made in temples have been changed.
MORALITYNeither Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young said anything about masturbation. Toward the end of the 19th century, Church leaders began to adopt the world’s teachings of the time – that it could lead to many horrible things, such as insanity. In the early 20th century, “church manuals endorsed secular books about sexuality and suggested that sexual interests be guided rather than inhibited” (
http://www.mormonstudies.net/pdf/mormon_masturbation.pdf Views on homosexuality have changed and will continue to change.
CONCLUSIONI hear that only church
policiesand practiceschange, but it’s apparent that things that were clearly taught as doctrinesand principleshave changed. Some leaders “teach for doctrines the commandments of men” and those teachings make their way into conference talks and manuals and are accepted as doctrine. It seems that we are “like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.” Right now, I am clinging to the spiritual experiences I have had and the Book of Mormon. If I had a good explanation for the Book of Mormon not being true, then I could leave the Church right now, but I still believe in it. However, it is getting harder and harder to believe it. When I read it, I keep thinking that I am reading only “a single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion” so why should be it be considered scripture? Help! I hear you Shawn. The whole, is it doctrine or is it not is confusing to me. Often things that ate taught as doctrine become policy or whatever if there is a negative backlash(ie banned preisthood). But I know JS didn’t originate the “doctrine” or belief of Cain and his descendants as african “cursed” descendants. That belief originated from the Jewish faith and we adopted it. Likewise the priesthood and gender roles. I would be willing to bet that the master nation part originated from there to(yes other faiths teach this but it started in the Jewish faith). Welcome to humanity. When ever you involve humans you see through the glass darkly(even prophets old or new) things get decidedly less simple. I don’t think god(see any evidence) that god ever came down or dictated clearly words through heaven. Receiving revelation through the spirit is decidedly more complicated. Just as god seemed to tolerate polegamy(which was a practiced traction superseding abraham) until the Jews were ready for the higher single marriage law. For them it was our version of the black preisthood ban. Same analogy. Same situation. So I see a pattern here. God seems to allow even his chosen servants latitude until they are ready to listen to him. Many times esteblished tradition seems to get in the way of that listening(ie pride). That to is part of being human. I see a huge repeating pattern with established traction and pride through all the books. Never seemed to have gotten rid of it as children of god. I think we are making massive inroads compared to the past though(ie tradition taught as doctrine or policy making the corrections faster). I wish for you the best in understanding what you need to understand to be content in this life. “Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests…Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.” It would be nice if General Authorities would live by that. I have lost faith in their words.
Now I am scared. I may have spoken evil of the Lord’s anointed. I am one who who actually has been disobedient and I suffer for it. The Spirit told me to stay away from certain websites and tried to lead me in other ways, but I didn’t follow those promptings. Nephite wrote:Now I am scared. I may have spoken evil of the Lord’s anointed. I am one who who actually has been disobedient and I suffer for it. The Spirit told me to stay away from certain websites and tried to lead me in other ways, but I didn’t follow those promptings.
We’re you expecting perfection? From either the lords anointed or yourself? I want to be careful to parser here. I feel by the spirit that it is wrong to talk ill of others including the lords anointed. I don’t make a distinction between them. But talking about or questioning something doesn’t mean speaking ill of someone.
Thank you. Maybe I am okay. I do not expect perfection. I would like to see more consistency and clarity as to what is doctrine.
Here is my current thinking on doctrine: Our leaders are not perfect, and their anointing doesn’t negate what they bring to the table in terms of talents, biases, weakness, strengths, etc. They see through a glass darkly, just as we do. I believe they are entitled to moments of clarity through the Holy Spirit, just as we are. Sometimes they teach truth; and sometimes they teach their own ideas.
So how do we know if a doctrine they teach is “of God” or is “of men”?
Wait for it…………Spiritual Triangulation!
1-Read the scriptures, listen to the words of the prophets
2-Study it out in our mind, and ask if it be right (pray) D&C 9
3-Experiment on the word–plant the seed; if it bears good fruit, it is a true doctrine; if it bears evil fruit, it is not of God–cast it out (Alma 32)
If a doctrine does not bear up under this kind of scrutiny, I think we can know that it is false doctrine. One of the beautiful things about pure mormonism is that we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are told we don’t have to take the words of “authority” figures on an issue–we can study, and pray, and know for ourselves.
I’m afraid that a lot of mormons only rely on #1. Lately, we have been taught to rely only on leaders for guidance–which I have found to be a false doctrine.
Let’s take comments about our black brothers and sisters–as I have read statements made before the 1978 revelation, I have felt dark. I have felt they were wrong. When I plant them, they bear evil fruit that does not grow, but chokes out the good. Thus I have found them to be false doctrine, and I cast them out. I have no problem with the fact that these comments were made by the Lord’s anointed–I believe they were bringing their own personal biases into the issue and they were wrong. I don’t parade around criticizing them for it. I am grateful for the good things they did for the kingdom. But I won’t live by doctrines that don’t hold up to the scrutiny of triangulation. God gave us a brain, and the Holy Ghost, and prayer, and agency for a reason.
Hi Shawn, Nephite wrote:If I had a good explanation for the Book of Mormon not being true, then I could leave the Church right now, but I still believe in it. However, it is getting harder and harder to believe it. When I read it, I keep thinking that I am reading only “a single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion” so why should be it be considered scripture? Help!
Why leave the church? Even if it turns out to not be historical, what does that have to do with the ability of the book and the church to enrich your life? Just because some of your ideas and perspectives change, why must that lead to a drastic change in the way you live your life? One is internal, the other external. Hopefully you have gained external benefits for the way you externally live, and those can stand as the reason to keep your course.
Internal views and understanding will always be in flux when a person is in the process of learning. Maybe we get out of the learning mode long enough that it becomes disorienting when we’re kicked back into gear, but I think if you remain calm and patient enough to get used to moving along again you’ll be able to make much better decisions after you have your balance again.
Best wishes, hang in there!
Nephite wrote:My world is an elaborate sand castle that is crumbling away.
Shawn, You are among kindred spirits here. One thing I’ve learned here (and I came to this site way… way… after my faith transition)… is not to think of your sand castle crumbling away, but rather being reshaped.Quote:CONCLUSION
I hear that only church policies and practices change, but it’s clear that things that were clearly taught as doctrines and principles have changed. Some leaders “teach for doctrines the commandments of men” and those teachings make their way into conference talks and manuals and are accepted as doctrine. It seems that we are “like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.” Right now, I am clinging to the spiritual experiences I have had and the Book of Mormon. If I had a good explanation for the Book of Mormon not being true, then I could leave the Church right now, but I still believe in it. However, it is getting harder and harder to believe it. When I read it, I keep thinking that I am reading only “a single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion” so why should be it be considered scripture? Help!
Here is my brain at work. God told Joseph that Christianity’s creeds were an abomination to him. God doesn’t like man making decisions that limit who he is, what his limits/powers are or what his gospel contains. So while many LDS want to know all the doctrine, the secret is there is very little doctrine. go to 2nd Nephi 31 – it plainly teaches the “Doctrine of Christ” and at the end says plainly and firmly that this is all of the doctrine of Christ. Faith, repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.
There is a kicker though in chapter 32 verse 6 Nephi tells us he made a mistake, that their actually would be more added to the doctrine of Christ once the Savior came in the flesh. I believe in my opinion this is temple ordinances.
Now seeing the Doctrine is a small group of things it helps us better understand Elder Bruce R. McConkie’s comment that
“Some unstable people become cranks with reference to this law of health. It should be understood that the Word of Wisdom is not the gospel, and the gospel is not the Word of Wisdom” The word of Wisdom is an appendage to the gospel.
So we want lots spelled out, and while some leaders try to do that (Elder McConkie, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith) they overstep their bounds by declaring doctrine in areas where revelation has not been received to support that.
It has happened in other dispensations as well. Jeremiah had a failed prophecy, indications the world is flat, earth doesn’t move in it’s orbit, ect… In other words Prophets have always shared their opinions at times and been wrong. Evolution in this dispensation, Paul’s discussing the role of women in the new testament, ect…
We have to let these men not be perfect in what they say or holding them to an unrealistic standard they will always fail.
It was a hard lesson for me to learn…. finally sunk in
also for the record, some here “help” by saying it is ok to not believe the tenants of the church. If I may offer my brand of “help” in my way… I want you to know I firmly think the Book of Mormon is as you hope True, Historical, factual, and living. Rather then change your perception of the Book of Mormon to fit your view of Prophets you also have the option to change you perception of Prophets to fit your view of the Book of Mormon.
turinturambar, thank you for your post. I am really thinking about what you wrote. For years, I have been aware of comments such as the ones I quoted. I can’t say why they are affecting me so much now. My main concern now is this: if false doctrine has been taught by multiple leaders and such teachings were codified, how is this church any different from those referred to in Joseph Smith History? “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'”
Orson, if the church is not really “true,” then I just don’t see myself being truly active in it. I guess being a “cafeteria Mormon” isn’t my thing. This does not mean that everythingis either true or false. The way I see it is that the church can be God’s church even though leaders are not perfect. That’s okay. Long-term, consistent, and systematic falsehoods are not okay to me. I could keep going to meetings to support my wife and kids, but that’s it. Remaining calm and patient is good advice. I should read through the “Way Back” post I made. Bishop Reel, I also appreciate your posts. I guess I have the same response to your words.
To me, this has ment casting out unquestionable dogma and embracing truth where it comes be it heaven, earth or hell. BY Both JS and BY seemed to accept and encourage accept truths the churchs at the time didn’t accept. They has long been casting out and persecuting those who believed in or were proving facts and truths different from what was held. To me this is undeniable that vids church wouldn’t force away or attack established facts. BY established that every proven truth that comes forward from a science wasn’t from “the devil” but from Christ himself. Something definitely not taught( as far as I know) at the time by a Christian church(BY remarked to that himself to a scientist).
Shawn, if that’s what you’re looking for, you won’t find it anywhere. Period. If you’re going to leave, wait until you can “trade up” to something that will work better for you. Pure Mormonism, as I define it, works for me – and I really don’t care if how I define it differs from how others define it, no matter their position in the Church. I have to live according to the dictates of my own conscience – and my own conscience allows me to be fully active in the LDS Church with my own personal views.
Finally, you’re hitting the wall. My advice is to back up, slow down and start tearing down the wall brick by brick – so you can rebuild something that won’t be a wall. Trying to walk around it or running away from it simply will leave it there in a path you probably will want to continue at some point if you really want to grow.
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