I am Shawn and I’m Crumbling

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

My world is an elaborate sand castle that is crumbling away.

Well, Shawn, (if that’s your real name ) I think the image of crumbling sand that you used is a good one, and is very familiar to all who have gone through this process. All of the points that you raise are valid ones, no doubt about that. I think that most people here have had to learn to deal with these issues (along with a host of others) in one way or another. I am truly fascinated by the different ways that different individuals do this. It is amazing to watch. Some seem temporarily stunned by the realization that all is not as they thought it was, but are able to put things back together more or less like they were before. Others entirely turn their backs on the whole kit and kaboodle. And of course there are an almost inifinite variety and number of responses that fit in between these two extremes … and they are all valid responses. There is no one right answer to this.

Personally, I think I fit somewhere near the latter of these two extremes. I didn’t choose that. It was more or less thrust upon me, and I have had to deal with it as best I can. While I can vaguely see a place for me in the church somewhere in the future, it’s an image that fades in and out. I really don’t know where I will end up. Hopefully, you will be able to assimilate the new information you’ve got better than I did, or at least in a less dramatic fashion. When I found that the integrity of my foundation was seriously in question, I eventually had to tear it all down, burn it up, haul it away and start over again from scratch. And while I am more or less happy with the results and with where I’m headed, it’s not something I would wish on anyone else.

While I am not suggesting that you need to do this or anything close to it, or that you need to discard any or all of the notions that you hold dear or that have hitherto been a comfort to you, I think you need to accept as a possible way forward that some of those things will have to go, and that you need to give first priority to what your heart tells you is “right” and “wrong”, instead of necessarily taking direction from external sources, wherever that might lead you, and no matter which of your preconceived notions get challenged in the process. Now that you have opened Pandora’s box, you will forver be frustrated unless you abandon the “it’s all true or all a lie” mindset.

[Anonymous]

Shawn, I am so glad you posted! I have been thinking of you off and on and wondering why you fell off the face of StayLDS. I am sorry you are struggling. Everyone always gives such great advice before I can even think of two words to say. But I will share that I think it is easier for converts at times. We have been exposed to so much by the time we come into the church. I personally was exposed to much anti Mormon literature. I was already a Christian and very strongly believed in praying and receiving answers. My answer was to join this church, in spite of some things that just didn’t add up. So I came where the Lord led me. I have still had some adjustments and shocks, mainly disappointment with people. But because I made the choice to follow what I still feel was the Lord’s leading, I am here. But I also knew how to follow the Lord’s leading, so…..I still pray and follow His leading. That has brought me into conflict with others as I did my stint of leadership positions. When it’s all said and done, I am still following His leading. I have never been led to do anything against the commandments…just to relieve Ray’s mind. He always qualifies listening to the Spirit…lol. I hold very much to being able to discern and pray over things. The Book of Mormon very much interests me. I don’t understand how anyone could have pulled off making it up and yet the spirit that attends it when I read it…and I read it skeptically the first time as a nonmember who was also studying anti Mormon literature. Because of all this, I don’t get too much angst over all the history questions etc. I don’t like the racist remarks BY made….I was horrified the first time I read them. But I quickly realized he will have to stand before his Maker one day and he will very likely be horrified himself as he realizes so much. I very much want to see women respected in a different way in the church. As long as we don’t have more decision making authority, I truly believe the women can’t fully blossom and carry out their work and be as united as we could be. And I am not talking about women being given the priesthood. But we really do need an equal seat at the table. That could be easily implemented. Anyhow…sorry I went off into my journey. Maybe you can view yourself as a convert coming in from the dreary world and let go of the old Shawn who grew up in the church. You did grow up in the church, didn’t you? I hope I am remembering correctly. Hope something here is helpful.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

Right now, I am clinging to the spiritual experiences I have had and the Book of Mormon. If I had a good explanation for the Book of Mormon not being true, then I could leave the Church right now, but I still believe in it. However, it is getting harder and harder to believe it. When I read it, I keep thinking that I am reading only “a single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion” so why should be it be considered scripture? Help!

I think this is a great attitude — because now you are free to view the scripture as one of many inputs into your own belief system. Also include your life experiences, what you have read and hear in other wisdom literature, as well as your own unique set of challenges and personality. Then, decide what YOU think.

The more I read scripture, the more I see it like art where five different people can look at it, and see something different — and each interpretation is correct as it’s translated into their own life experiences and to their own personal needs at the time. So, instead of looking at as something literal, look at it as a thing of beauty which has the power to trigger inspiration and revelation.

Take, for example Section 138 of the D&C — the prophet Joseph F. Smith claims to have seen a vision of the spirit world. this was triggered by reading a passage in the Bible and reflecting on it. The passage in the bible had very little to do with the actual content of the vision — the vision was long and detailed, but the scripture short and crytpic….but it was the trigger that opened that vision to the prophet.

Look at the scriptures as your own personal keyhole to great truth. At this point, it doesn’t matter if it’s literal scripture that is technically accurate — in fact, false words from prophets (men’s opinion, when not inspired) can be a source of inspiration for you to develop your own philosophy and come to realizations that their statements show bias, egocentrism, or are just plain wrong.

Get on your own clock and listen to the Inner Shawn when he’s plugged into spirituality and then search for truth from any source — LDS or otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

Orson, if the church is not really “true,” then I just don’t see myself being truly active in it. I guess being a “cafeteria Mormon” isn’t my thing.

I know what you mean, but ponder for a moment that everyone is a cafeteria Mormon to some degree. Spiritual “truth” is an individual construct, don’t let that blow your mind right now but put it on a back shelf as my opinion and bring it back out to re-examine at different points down the road. In our extremely limited mortal state I can’t see it any other way. Everyone is going to have their own unique perspective on divine realities.

FYI the church to me is still true, it’s the Lord’s church led by inspiration and revelation etc. I don’t have all the answers, I am likely wrong in some of my current ideas (same as everyone); at the same time I feel divinely led to be more open to knowledge being revealed from many different directions. I also see a tolerance of ambiguity as the breadcrumbs of maturation. This is how we walk in faith, we choose to act even when all the pieces don’t fit.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know what the answer is. On the one hand I see so much good come the church – its expansive and inclusive view of the heavens, it’s strong emphasis on helping your neighbor and many many positives. On the other hand I see so many man made “doctrines” – many of which you have outlined. How can God let so many incorrect teachings exist in a divinely led church. Many of these teachings do real harm to our brothers and sisters. For me, I find some solace from the parable of the Olive tree:

 

Quote:

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.

The implication seems to be that the Lord will allow bitter fruit in the church that will be cleared away only as fast as the tree can bear. God appears to accept us and work with us where we are, and while we attempt to improve ourselves, we can only go so fast. I don’t know that this will help you, but it helped me come to terms with some of this. 

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

Hopefully, you will be able to assimilate the new information you’ve got better than I did, or at least in a less dramatic fashion. When I found that the integrity of my foundation was seriously in question, I eventually had to tear it all down, burn it up, haul it away and start over again from scratch.

Thanks for your thoughtful response, doug. I actually don’t have any new information – I’m just now being bothered more by information I already had. Not sure why. I suppose it’s like that at times for many people here.

afterall wrote:

Shawn, I am so glad you posted! I have been thinking of you off and on and wondering why you fell off the face of StayLDS. I am sorry you are struggling…The Book of Mormon very much interests me. I don’t understand how anyone could have pulled off making it up and yet the spirit that attends it when I read it… I don’t like the racist remarks BY made….I was horrified the first time I read them. But I quickly realized he will have to stand before his Maker one day and he will very likely be horrified himself as he realizes so much…Maybe you can view yourself as a convert coming in from the dreary world and let go of the old Shawn who grew up in the church. You did grow up in the church, didn’t you?

Thanks for thinking of me! I agree that the Book of Mormon is too complex to have been fabricated. Regarding Brigham Young, I have recently fallen for the “Mental Filter” cognitive distortion. I need to remember what I wrote before: “Do you sometimes dwell exclusively on negative details? Some members might like 95% of what Brigham Young said, but they focus only on what they don’t like.” I actually believe he did just fine when met God – he just echoed some views of his time.

Yes, I was born and raised in Utah. We went to church as a family but I was a hardcore rebellious teenager, heavily into drugs and other things. I feel that was converted and came in from the dreary world at that time, so I am thankful that God gives us more than one second chance. There’s more in my introduction.

SillentDawning wrote:

I think this is a great attitude — because now you are free to view the scripture as one of many inputs into your own belief system. Also include your life experiences, what you have read and hear in other wisdom literature, as well as your own unique set of challenges and personality. Then, decide what YOU think.

Look at the scriptures as your own personal keyhole to great truth. At this point, it doesn’t matter if it’s literal scripture that is technically accurate — in fact, false words from prophets (men’s opinion, when not inspired) can be a source of inspiration for you to develop your own philosophy and come to realizations that their statements show bias, egocentrism, or are just plain wrong.

I appreciate your response. With all due respect, I don’t want to decide what I think. Well, I have to make decisions, of course, but what I think about God, religion, and history can’t change those things. I want to know the truth and accept it, regardless of what I think about it. Does that make any sense?

I will reply other posts later.

To all, thank you. I am calmer today. I do not feel to knock down my sand castle any more, at least not right now. Perhaps I will chill out and open myself up more to God. Following are some of my thoughts on the issues I brought up:

RACE ISSUES

I realize that most of what the brethren say is good. I can excuse comments made here and there. And it’s been quite some years since any GA has said anything bad on this issue. It may be that God allowed a troubling policy to be made in the Church regarding who can get the Priesthood. Many things are allowed that teach people lessons. I pray that God will comfort me so I can be troubled no more about this.

SEXISM

I believe I have always had a healthy view of women and esteemed them as equals. I’m okay with men and women having separate roles. To me, having the Priesthood means having responsibility, not power. Right now I am concerned about receiving mixed messages.

MORALITY

I suppose what has been taught about masturbation and homosexuality is not official doctrine. I am over this one, I think.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Nephite wrote:

Orson, if the church is not really “true,” then I just don’t see myself being truly active in it. I guess being a “cafeteria Mormon” isn’t my thing.

I know what you mean, but ponder for a moment that everyone is a cafeteria Mormon to some degree. Spiritual “truth” is an individual construct, don’t let that blow your mind right now but put it on a back shelf as my opinion and bring it back out to re-examine at different points down the road. In our extremely limited mortal state I can’t see it any other way. Everyone is going to have their own unique perspective on divine realities.

FYI the church to me is still true, it’s the Lord’s church led by inspiration and revelation etc. I don’t have all the answers, I am likely wrong in some of my current ideas (same as everyone); at the same time I feel divinely led to be more open to knowledge being revealed from many different directions. I also see a tolerance of ambiguity as the breadcrumbs of maturation. This is how we walk in faith, we choose to act even when all the pieces don’t fit.

I think I see what you mean. People follow only certain things in the church. For myself, though, I don’t think it will work to stay in the church while actively rejecting any significant doctrines or practices.

I have calmed down and I am not really considering leaving now, btw.

[Anonymous]

Glad you are putting the leaving idea away! I didn’t mean to offend with the convert comment…I didn’t realize you had been out in the cold and dreary world much more than I ever was! 😯

[Anonymous]

Welcome Shawn! I just wanted to say that I too am trying to put my world back together. I have been away from the Church for four years, and I’m a convert, but I’ve started reading scriptures and praying again and I’m happy with where I’m at. That’s the thing. Everyone has to participate in a level that they are comfortable with and at their own pace, because in the end, we are the ones who have to lay our head down on our pillows at night. I have had to remind myself several times since I’ve started attending church again (which was just over a week ago) that this is my journey and absolutely no one else’s. It’s not my Mom’s, it’s not my Bishop’s, it’s not anyone’s but mine. And the one person I should be concerned about answering to, (and the only one) is God, at the end of the day.

[Anonymous]

kmullin211984 wrote:

Welcome Shawn! I just wanted to say that I too am trying to put my world back together. I have been away from the Church for four years, and I’m a convert, but I’ve started reading scriptures and praying again and I’m happy with where I’m at. That’s the thing. Everyone has to participate in a level that they are comfortable with and at their own pace, because in the end, we are the ones who have to lay our head down on our pillows at night. I have had to remind myself several times since I’ve started attending church again (which was just over a week ago) that this is my journey and absolutely no one else’s. It’s not my Mom’s, it’s not my Bishop’s, it’s not anyone’s but mine. And the one person I should be concerned about answering to, (and the only one) is God, at the end of the day.

Amen

[Anonymous]

afterall, you did not offend me at all! I was just giving a little explanation of part of my history.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

I think I see what you mean. People follow only certain things in the church. For myself, though, I don’t think it will work to stay in the church while actively rejecting any significant doctrines or practices.

FWIW I also cannot imagine staying in the church while actively rejecting any significant doctrines. Obviously cultural ideas do not carry the same weight with me, and I define “significant doctrines” according to my unique understanding and personal revelation – just like every other faithful member does. True some may not have enough faith in the workings of the spirit and revelation to accept their personal answers and may trust in the arm of flesh, others may obtain valid answers for themselves that do not look like mine or anyone elses. This is the nature of the divine plan.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

I do not expect perfection. I would like to see more consistency and clarity as to what is doctrine.

Doctrine: 1.A belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group.

Shawn,

I don’t know how to filter, I realized. 😆

So, please excuse my bluntness…

Doctrine of the church is not God… it’s from people.

Jesus taught that the 2 greatest commandment are to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others as ourselves… “on these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

We shouldn’t “trust in the arm of flesh.” It will always fail… Only charity (the pure love of God/Christ) will never fail.

How we understand & love is often through symbols (like these letters I’m typing).

Yesterday, I went on a long walk & had a good long chat with my sister (who’s very TBM).

I prayed before hand because she & I have knocked heads before & I wanted to be there for her, since she’s been having a lot of challenges.

I guess I can filter… with lots of prayer.

What is difficult is to see someone you love in pain because of harmful illusions… yet we all have them.

As impatient as I am, I acknowledge that I too can only handle, “line upon line.”

Leaving the “illusional” church isn’t going to make life completely free of illusion.

Every group has some type of illusional belief that they attempt to use to unify people.

And individually, we are not “all knowing” but see things in limited, subjective, illusional ways.

The church offers an illusion/symbols that help many people, but symbols, like parables can be interpreted different ways.

Some ways are harmful, so I try to consider & teach my kids better & to understand & focus on the goodness & spirit of it.

I also had some wild days… which made the purity in the church even more delicious.

I wonder…

Do you think part of the pain & fear you feel/felt is based on an idea that the church represents your purity & if it fails, your purity fails?

[Anonymous]

Doctrine is one of two things:

1. The Doctrine of Jesus Christ. Jesus repeatedly declared his explicit doctrine.

Doctrine & Covenants 10:67-68 wrote:

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

3 Ne 11 wrote:

28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil.

I would say three things about “This is my doctrine” — The Doctrine of Jesus Christ:

[Anonymous]

Welcome, Shawn. I’m happy to meet you. I didn’t you were now known as Nephite. I was beginning to want to start a post asking where Shawn was. Good to see you’re still around. Like you, I’ve had to have some of beliefs altered, although I’m still pretty much a TBM. I do believe that the Gospel of Christ is faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and temple ordinances. I believe everything else are appendages. Unlike you, I’m not married or as highly educated as you are. I’m glad to see you’re still willing to stay in the church and make things work for you.

[Author]

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