I am Shawn and I’m Crumbling

[Anonymous]

I appreciate all the comments. I thought about DOCTRINE all weekend. As wayfarer pointed out, the “doctrine of Christ” is to repent, believe in Him, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost (“for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost”), and endure to the end. I like to include “and become as a little child.” Also, in 3 Nephi 27, Jesus said:

Quote:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

I really don’t know if there is any difference between “my doctrine” and “my gospel.” They both essentially say the same thing. Anyway, there must be more to it all. Of what do we need to repent? What are we to be doing as we endure to the end? I don’t want to add to Christ’s doctrine or gospel, but perhaps there are appendages we might call the “teachings of Christ.” If not, wouldn’t He have stopped teaching after He said what was recorded in 3 Nephi 11?

After 3 Nephi 11, He delivers the Sermon on the Mount and MANY other teachings: “…blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me…whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment…whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart…love your enemies…do alms unto the poor…all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them… Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven,” etc.

In chapter 15, He said, “Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me.”

In chapter 18, the sacrament is administered and Jesus says, “And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.”

In chapter 23, the people are commanded to search the words of Isaiah and to “search the prophets.” And then there’s this whopper in verse 14: “And now it came to pass that when Jesus had expounded all the scriptures in one, which they had written, he commanded them that they should teach the things which he had expounded unto them.”

In chapter 26 it is said that “he did expound all things unto them, both great and small… And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people.”

So I guess we must live the way Jesus showed us and obey His commandments and repent when we fall short in order to endure to the end. We are to partake of the sacrament and search the prophets. The commandments are explained throughout the scriptures.

So what is my point? I’m not sure. Right now, I don’t even have faith that the sun will rise again. It seems that the 12 apostles are to continually remind us of the teachings of Christ and establish current church doctrine. Or maybe they are not supposed to establish current church doctrine.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a short version. In addition to the doctrine of Christ, I suppose we have official church doctrine – “With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.”

If the commandments of men have been taught as doctrine, then I am deeply troubled.

[Anonymous]

Shawn, there are days when I read your posts, and I wish I could simply be there with you in person to express how much I love and appreciate you, your posts, and your inquiries.

You are asking the billion dollar question: “ok, so what are we supposed to DO?” I have asked this fundamental question to religious people of all faiths, and you know? no one really has a meaningful answer. Some will say “god’s will”. Others will say, “Follow the prophet, he knows the way”. Others will say, “Keep the commandments”, but like you say, which ones? when? How? there are so many.

In the story of the Exodus, the jews wanted concrete answers and guidelines. They wanted a prescription for life. God revealed to them “The Law”, a set of ultimately 613 concrete rules or ‘obligations’ / Mitzvah, that they could follow with precision. God wanted them to live in harmony as ‘his people’ with minimal rules, but the people didn’t want that. They wanted exactness and clarity. Hence they got a ‘lower law’ and they got what they asked for and deserved: a laundry list of commandments and obligations. God wanted them to live as his people, and that he would be their king. The people didn’t want this: they wanted a king, so that they could prosper like their neighbors. And god gave israel lots of kings: mostly bad ones, starting with Saul and his bipolar disease, next King David, who makes Bill Clinton look like a saint…

So we ask what should we do? And the answer is, again, come to Christ. Unfortunately, that’s not very specific to most people. But when we look at it in greater detail, Jesus said, “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” and he challenges us, “what manner of [people] ought ye to be? Even as I AM. When moses wanted to know the name of the Lord, the lord said, “I AM THAT I AM. Tell them that I AM hath sent you.” I AM. Being, in the moment, for the moment, authentically being one with the situation and with others in it. What does this mean? It means being sincere, being genuine and authentic with myself and others in this very moment. Never taking advantage of another, finding ways to serve one another, and to find joy in each moment. Detaching from things past and things future, I AM is about the present. I AM ONE with my moments each and every day. When I walk down the street, I am aware of my environment, of the people around me. Being aware, I listen to promptings of the spirit tell me what to do, as if the spirit were a liahona, guiding me to serve wherever I am needed.

The key to the course, the Way of this life, is personal revelation. This is the remarkable discovery of the Restored Gospel. We have guidelines, sure — many, many teachings of the church that can help us: but they are nothing if they are not spiritually what we are to do. And in choosing a path, we don’t turn off our minds, we don’t turn off our hearts, we use the synthesis of both to find our Way.

Remember that the Plan of Salvation was not for us to have a mandated path to follow. Instead, God provided the Way, a Savior, who isn’t just the person who fixes our wrongs, but rather, who provides a guide for us within our lives. As Alma explains to Helaman: it’s entirely about following this remarkable guide:

Alma 37:44-47 wrote:

For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ, which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss, as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, which would point unto them a straight course to the promised land.

And now I say, is there not a type in this thing? For just as surely as this director did bring our fathers, by following its course, to the promised land, shall the words of Christ, if we follow their course, carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.

O my son, do not let us be slothful because of the easiness of the way; for so was it with our fathers; for so was it prepared for them, that if they would look they might live; even so it is with us. The way is prepared, and if we will look we may live forever.

And now, my son, see that ye take care of these sacred things, yea, see that ye look to God and live.

The ‘words of Christ’ are not just in a book. They’re the words of truth, wherever they may be found: in Scripture. In counsel of the prophets. In lots of places. But most importantly, they’re the thoughts that come into your mind as you contemplate your path. All revelation is personal, and we have access to the same means as the prophets, even moses, to find out truth:

D&C 8:2-3 wrote:

Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

To those who think that it is just ‘follow the spirit’, it’s both:

D&C 9-7-9 wrote:

Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong

Everyone has different gifts. Not everyone can just let go of all rules and regulations and live by the spirit. As well, in a civilized church and society, rules are necessary to govern what goes on and provide order. We submit to the rules of the church and society as a practical matter. The rules of the church provide a default set of guidelines to live by. But they by themselves are not sufficient, nor are they something that we should beat ourselves up with if they don’t exactly fit the situation.

[Anonymous]

I think I am beginning to see it. Sadly, I only have to remember what I knew when I was converted at age 16. It was very clear to me then. I believed in Christ, repented, renewed my baptism by taking the sacrament, and received the Holy Ghost. All other things were useful if they helped me follow Christ. I don’t know why I have allowed it all to become so complicated to me.

[Anonymous]

Nephite wrote:

I don’t know why I have allowed it all to become so complicated to me.

I was just about to say that I think you’re overcomplicating this, but you beat me to it. It has all become complicated to you because, as you also pointed out, the commandments of men have been taught as doctrine and you are actually trying to make it all make sense. But really, what else did you expect them to teach? They are men after all (… and women, of course), and men will teach the commandments of men … that’s all they have to offer. Something only becomes a commandment of God, for you, once you have had time to examine it in your own good time and make it yours if you so choose. If what is taught works for you, then great. If not, don’t be too surprised about it and just keep moving.

[Anonymous]

The whole blacks and the priesthood thing was a huge issue for me too. I remember on my mission scrutinizing everything verse by verse trying to find some way that I could harmonize the racist doctrines and policy that the church had held earlier with the scriptures you quoted. I feel like I’m on my way out of my faith crisis now, and looking back I think everything centered around my lack of comfort with ambiguity. I needed everything to be spelled out in black and white. I wanted a direct statement from the church as to what was official binding doctrine and what was not. I’m not saying the church is perfect; I’m still perfectly aware of the flaws with it. But I think I can say in hindsight that my faith crisis was more about me learning to live with uncertainty than it was about determining whether the church was right or wrong.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

Shawn, there are days when I read your posts, and I wish I could simply be there with you in person to express how much I love and appreciate you, your posts, and your inquiries.

Thanks, man!

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

Nephite wrote:

I don’t know why I have allowed it all to become so complicated to me.

I was just about to say that I think you’re overcomplicating this, but you beat me to it. It has all become complicated to you because, as you also pointed out, the commandments of men have been taught as doctrine and you are actually trying to make it all make sense. But really, what else did you expect them to teach? They are men after all (… and women, of course), and men will teach the commandments of men … that’s all they have to offer. Something only becomes a commandment of God, for you, once you have had time to examine it in your own good time and make it yours if you so choose. If what is taught works for you, then great. If not, don’t be too surprised about it and just keep moving.

Doug, thanks for your response. With all due respect, I gotta say I differ from your view of “But really, what else did you expect them to teach? They are men after all (… and women, of course), and men will teach the commandments of men … that’s all they have to offer.” I think that when a man is teaching what is actually the true teachings of Christ, he is teaching God’s word and not his own. I suppose a super majority of what is taught by church leaders is in line with the teachings of Christ. It would be nice if they would stick to that 🙂

[Anonymous]

leavingthecave25 wrote:

The whole blacks and the priesthood thing was a huge issue for me too. I remember on my mission scrutinizing everything verse by verse trying to find some way that I could harmonize the racist doctrines and policy that the church had held earlier with the scriptures you quoted. I feel like I’m on my way out of my faith crisis now, and looking back I think everything centered around my lack of comfort with ambiguity. I needed everything to be spelled out in black and white. I wanted a direct statement from the church as to what was official binding doctrine and what was not. I’m not saying the church is perfect; I’m still perfectly aware of the flaws with it. But I think I can say in hindsight that my faith crisis was more about me learning to live with uncertainty than it was about determining whether the church was right or wrong.

Alas, that is still an issue for me. I am trying to figure it out now.

[Anonymous]

For me, that issue is quite easy now:

1) Ancient people believed race was a marker of worth (superiority of their own vs. inferiority of others’).

2) They wrote statements claiming it in works that were accepted as scripture (“the word of God”).

3) People continued (and continue) to believe it, since they couldn’t (and still can’t) distinguish between “the word of God” and “the word of God, as far as it is translated / transmitted correctly”. (since they couldn’t [and still can’t] see themselves as gods and, therefore, “the word of God” as subject to their own biases and prejudices)

4) Joseph Smith used the phrase “as far as it is translated correctly” about the Bible.

5) Few early Mormon leaders thought to add “as far as the earlier prophets were translating their own beliefs about the word of God correctly” as they interpreted scriptures, including the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.

6) Joseph’s ordination of Black men notwithstanding, Brigham Young just couldn’t accept the possibility of inter-racial marriage leading to temple sealing (the ultimate race-related taboo of the time).

7) Brigham used the scriptures (see #1-#3 and #5 above) to justify that prejudice, not realizing he simply was perpetuating “the incorrect traditions of his fathers” (which ALL prophets – and all of us – have done to some degree throughout history).

He then retrofitted a complete Priesthood and temple ban, using the same flawed but scriptural justification.

All that, I believe, is factual and, essentially, logically indisputable.

My final item is my own opinion and might be spectacularly wrong:

9) God threw his hands in the air and did what he has done generally when dealing with us – saying, in essence:

Quote:

“You did and supported this without seeking or getting my input, so get to the point collectively where you recognize the error of your ways and are ready to fix it. When you get there, I’ll back you and let you know you’re right. I’ll let you prune it when you finally gets your act together and the pruning can be done without killing the root.”

He then muttered:

Quote:

“I love my kids, but sometimes . . .”

[Anonymous]

Ray, I could believe this. Its similar to the revelation I’ve had explaining why the gods are not overly concerned when the church doesn’t work for everyone and they have to leave and find a different path.

I think they understand the frustration and pain many of us are going through.

Perhaps that is why they gave man many different pathways to walk. I also think its a good example of why many of us believe the “middle way” is divine. Essential to so many.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

You are asking the billion dollar question: “ok, so what are we supposed to DO?” I have asked this fundamental question to religious people of all faiths, and you know? no one really has a meaningful answer. Some will say “god’s will”. Others will say, “Follow the prophet, he knows the way”. Others will say, “Keep the commandments”, but like you say, which ones? when? How? there are so many.

Wayfarer made a great point with this example.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” Matt 7:7

This is a beautiful conundrum that seems to be wired into our souls. We keep asking and searching for someone to tell us the answer. Those who care the most, with the most passion and drive, will keep searching and asking and testing. We run and run and run on the treadmill. What must I do to inherit Eternal Life? What must I do to please God and live a good life? Someone tell us. Someone else knows the answer. Someone out there is to blame when we fail.

I’ll short cut the process a bit Shawn, because it seems like you are really close to that ah-ha! moment: there isn’t anyone out there who can tell you exactly what the answer is. Like Morpheus explains when he meets Neo for the first time, and gives him the choice of the red pill or the blue pill. Nobody can explain what The Matrix is, you have to experience it for yourself.

Even Jesus passed the diligent and obedient seeker off to the ultimate source of authority: their own 1:1 connection to the divine, The Source, The One.

Quote:

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?

Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

-Mark 10:17-18

Jesus was trying to tell him that nobody but God could tell him the answer. Jesus didn’t give him a list of do’s and don’ts. Jesus gave the most open, blunt and honest answer a wisdom teacher could ever give — don’t ask me, go ask yourself! (you can figure it out on your own. you must seek God directly). My guess is this is very likely an authentic quote from the historical Jesus that was preserved over the ages, since it’s so problematic theologically to the Christians that like to claim him as their God.

The man continued to pester him for the poison of dependency, listing off all his accomplishments, checking off all the items on the lists others had given him. So Jesus gave him the most painful lesson he could see — give all your riches away and follow me. You aren’t ready yet, I guess. So you need to cause more suffering to yourself until you are ready to let go of having someone (like Jesus) tell him what to do.

When we have suffered enough by failing to become as the gods, then we are ready to finally let go of our baggage and our blindness that keeps us from realizing that we already know how. We already know the answers.

[Anonymous]

brian, that’s a fantastic analysis of the story of the rich young man.

One thing I find really interesting in that story was when the Lord peered into the rich young man’s soul, he loved him. I just find it so amazing, so intriguing, that this young man had all the potential to be anything, but his attachments had kept him from self-realization.

[Anonymous]

Brian:

Thanks for the very timely wisdom you shared. Much appreciated.

[Anonymous]

There is also an interesting element of being taught milk by the Church that helps support and strengthen the spirituality of its members, to give fertile soil for deeper learning. When the person gets ready for the meat, the Church can provide the tools…but the individual must go seek in order to find…it can’t be handed to the person and digested. This can sometimes be where people get into an awkward transition stage in their faith. No more training wheels, no more guiding hand…its time to balance the bike on your own and learn that through experience (which often includes some painful wipeouts at first).

So, while Brian is correct in “go ask for yourself” and “you already know the answers”, at the same time, church leaders can be a catalyst to learning and can sometimes facilitate new learning by sharing their views and their testimonies to help point a person where they can go look to find their answers, such as sign posts on the side of the road, which help point us to find where we need to go…yet we must go there ourselves. The sign posts are not the destination. We are not benefited by collecting sign posts. The Church leaders are coaches, providing support and guidance, not teachers that hand us answers on the exam.

So there is a paradox of benefiting from the Church and one can be better off in the Church learning and growing and serving while we are “in the middle” of our eternal journey, and yet there is always a need to be independent of the church leaders for critical answers to our lives because we can’t really grow without finding it ourselves and experiencing it ourselves (taking the red pill). I think Covey would say that is interdependence…independent individuals working together.

It feels, Shawn, like you are squirming a bit at the transition phase as you are coming to realize this paradox. Many of us know the feeling. Don’t fear it. Follow your heart and your spirit as you push forward continuing to find those billion dollar questions.

Quote:

C.S. Lewis in The Weight of Glory:

If our religion is something objective, then we must never avert our eyes from those elements in it which seem puzzling or repellant; for it will be precisely the puzzling or the repellant which conceals what we do not yet know and need to know….the truth we need most is hidden precisely in the doctrines you least like and least understand. Scientists make progress because scientists instead of running away from such troublesome phenomena or hushing them up, are constantly seeking them out. In the same way, there will be progress in Christian knowledge only as long as we accept the challenge of the difficult or repellant doctrines.

[Author]

Posts