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As society & the church are slowing going back to “normal”, I’m finding myself becoming more depressed. Now, there is no masks, no social distancing, more socializing. That’s all fine. It’s the content & substance of our
meetings that seems to bother me. That part hasn’t changed. I hoped that it would.
This Sunday, we had (2) new members (moved in) introduce themselves.
Their talks sounded more like a job interview then a sacrament talk. In the last couple of minutes they tried
to tie their introductions into a gospel principle with little success. We’ve had other talks that tried to talk
about the Covid pandemic with worshiping “science” vs Jesus Christ. All I could think about was, how would I
react if I were investigating the church & this was my first meeting?
The other meetings, Sunday School & Priesthood, seem as effective. For the first time in my life, I fell asleep
during Priesthood. During SS, they like to break into small groups & discuss generic topics that calls for a
“canned” responses. When that happens, I generally get up & walk outside or talk with my friends in the halls.
Back in the “old days” when the HP were separate from the Elders, the HP could have more open discussions.
No one seemed to be offended or upset.
My wife is just the opposite. She had a positive view regarding the talks & loves to teach Primary. I think she likes
Primary because she doesn’t have to go to RS. (She won’t admit that.)
Does anyone have a suggestion?
Are we married to the same person? You just described my wife to a T. What you describe is why I have had a hard time motivating myself to go back, and it is depressing. I am happier not going and watching Music and the Spoken Word instead. Other than my usual coping methods (essentially distracting myself) I have no suggestions. When I do convince myself to return I have decided that one hour will be enough, I will be skipping SS/PH.
Unfortunately I don’t have a suggestion. All I have is a genuine I know what you’re going through. I haven’t been back to in-person church. I did participate in our online meetings while we still had them.
My ward has gone back to business as usual. They removed the online option at the same time they removed every covid safety precaution. No more gaps in seating, no more mask suggestion (so no one wears them now), no more precautions related to blessing and passing the sacrament.
I was hoping that they would have done one of two things:
1) Continue to offer online meetings as a semi-permanent change.
2) If they feel they have to end online meetings, keep safety precautions around for a little longer to help transition people back to in-person church.
They did neither.
I feel kicked to the curb. Even after I feel comfortable going back to in-person church it will be some time before I’ll be able to shake the feeling that I’m with a group that unapologetically kicked me to the curb.
I can’t really help you with Sunday School or Priesthood. Pre-covid I started going home after the first hour because I didn’t feel like I could contribute to the discussions, what little there was. Ironically I attended SS and PH when they were offered online but once I get back to in-person church (probably in the next few months) I’ll go home after the first hour again. The online services helped me be more active than I’d otherwise be. It’s a shame that the church is so averse to providing that service.
I am pleased to report that we still have church services streamed online. This last week I took the kids and DW stayed home and watched/multi-tasked to get stuff done. I usually work on Sunday’s but I had the day off. I told my wife that me taking the kids to church is something that I can do to take a task off of her plate. She feels guilty for not going. I tell her, “The church was created to serve the members, not the members created to serve the church.” My son jumps right in to help with the sacrament. He is on the autism spectrum. I feel that it is good for him to feel needed and contributing. He wears an uncomfortable shirt and a tie. Sometimes it can be good to do uncomfortable things. This is a mixed bag as I do wish that there was gratitude expressed for him showing up and helping out.
It is Fast and Testimony Sunday and my son asks me if I have a testimony. I tell him that I do and I tell him that I will share it with him at home.
After SM, I am approached by the guy that needs to do my ministering brotherhood interview and we set up an appointment for after church. I go home with my kids after SM and then return to the church building later for the appointment and share what I have been doing to stay in contact with my families. The priesthood brother challenges me to share a spiritual thought with my assigned families and I accept (I have been in the church long enough to feel that accepting a challenge like this is not the same thing as actually doing it). He has been asked to “challenge” the brothers that he meets with in his interviews and that is what he did. I am currently debating how much effort to put into fulfilling this challenge. Maybe I can include a spiritual thought by text. Maybe a short scripture quote and a reminder that I am their ministering brother if they should ever need anything.
This summer there will be some youth opportunities for my kids. There is girl’s camp and “trek.” My daughter does not want to go to camp because she does not want the responsibility of being a youth camp leader. It is unfortunate that this seems so inflexible. I do believe that we could get an exception if we pushed hard enough but DD seems to prefer just not to go. DD does want to go to trek because she has a good friend from a neighboring ward that she wants to go with. DW and I do not feel comfortable sending DS on trek unless I can get off work to go with him.
In summary, church is a mixed bag (especially as a middle way Mormon). There are some benefits and some costs. I do not tend to expect the messages/lessons/talks to be part of that benefit – although sometimes I am pleasantly surprised.
I think that church attendance and church participation has a lot of factors involved in it.
– Due to health problems, my husband had drifted away about a year or so before COVID. Of necessity, all my executive functioning efforts at church attendance with my girls were “my thing”. It also became clear to him that it was not reasonable to expect me to take the girls to church on my own if I did not want to.
– The RS and Primary program leadership adapted to having my daughter and I alternating between RS and Primary for the 2nd hour for 6 months or so to help anchor my daughter into wanting to be a church (and theoretically developing a testimony). It helped that I had the social currency of being the RS teacher and having been an Achievement Day leader.
– Like any other social group, it was a mixed bag – some people judged us, and some people supported us – though most people (if they bothered to think about it) were just moderately baffled by use. But I spent years trying not to shame myself (and most of my family members) for not meeting the expectations (real and perceived) of women at church for things that I could not necessarily control (or easily control). My husband always said, “It doesn’t matter what they think/say”. He’s not wrong, it doesn’t – unless you are trying to stay in a group, and those group benefits are only available if others are comfortable with who you are and what you do. It does matter when the social stakes are not just your social activities, but the treatment of your spouse and children.
– This is related to the item above – but it is also different.
- My oldest daughter’s developmental trajectory from baby to adulthood is less standardized then most individuals’. She has some specific descriptions that are umbrella terms for how she might live her life – the good and the bad.
- She could present thoughtful comments in an adult-conversation about the intellectual underpinnings of suicide (in context of my RS lesson) – but throw a fit when she felt bored and socially uncomfortable at a Primary Achievement Day.
- Most parents do not spend several years trying to persuade their child that said child is a member of the human species – with specific rights and responsibilities associated with that (like a default desire to connect to other humans. period.). We did. During the period of 7-8 years of age to 11 (ish) years of age, we were trying to teach her that it was safe/good to connect to people, teach her the other age appropriate stuff, as well as teaching her the teachings of the church.
- I spent years trying to be that “bridge” – to provide the explanations to the teachers for why my daughter can’t sit still, has zero interest in being in the Primary Program – and a lot of “little ways” she doesn’t fit their cookie cutter. There was only so much program adaptation I could do to connect my non-connective daughter who was not interested in God to the church and her peers.
When COVID hit and I didn’t have to pay that cost anymore – it felt… liberating.
– It’s not worth it to me to try to show up (at least for now – the baby turns 8 in 2.5 years). The way the cards have played out so far is that I am a Non-Christian Agnostic Deist – ish person. It is refreshing to call myself a “heathen” in the company of some individuals and watch their reaction 😮
- It bothers me that as a female, I have specific roles with “influence” and “nurture” being the key words in what I can do. According to the Family Proclamation, I am limited from “providing” and “protecting” as a default family setting – my husband and I considered ourselves the “exception” to the gender-based role regulations a long time ago – which has saved our family many times.
- My ASD self cannot “nurture” in the warm compassionate way expected – but I am an amazing caretaker. My “nurturing” in terms of church teachings did not teach what it was supposed to, that much I know.
- I don’t do subterfuge or implicit behind-the-scenes actions. If it is important enough to act on, it is important enough to say out loud as often as it takes.
- I don’t agree that the actual lines of power and authority should be assigned to 1 gender, and blurred for other genders.
- I think that there is a huge difference between administration in the church and pastoral ministering in the church – that also should not be confined to just the brethren.
- I think that the Primary President and the Relief Society President are the most influential people in the church unit because they will know the most about families – either because of what they are told, or because of what they gather based on their life experiences. Treating them as “auxiliary” leaders by not empowering them in the power structure (or at least explicitly giving them the credit for what they do and who they connect with repeatedly) does everyone a dis-service.
These views probably make me a very uncomfortable person at church – or give people a lot of reason to judge me:)
NOTE: We don’t have a social tribe right now in our area. It hurts sometimes. I do stay up late at night worrying about “what-ifs” that are bigger then I am and could potentially capsize my little family. I don’t recommend it.
My only limited advice is if your intent is to continue to go, find value where you can. I don’t agree with many members views (especially those in teaching roles), I largely don’t have much input these days either. I would like to think I still can impact some change from within, but mostly I think it will be me that is changing. Do you have friends or acquaintances that you look forward to seeing each Sunday? I am part of the ‘foyer club’ or the Sunday School that meets in the hallway. Other than when I was eqp or in the ym, meetings weren’t my thing. I looked at those social connections as important if not more important than some of the content coming out of people’s mouths over the pulpit.
I hate to say that some of the things that make us cringe a little or things we disagree with are hurdles we have to live with to get to the good stuff. It seems to me the gospel in action is seen after meetings when people are talking and socializing. socializing is sometimes hard for me but I still say it.
I have a lot of respect for the members in our ward. The interesting observation for me is:
. There is very little open discussion in PH or RS.
. The older more experienced members rarely respond to questions unless called upon.
. The older more experienced members rarely bear a testimony about the church or the gospel in general.
Now that I am old (really old) I feel like I have to conform too. My personal nature has been as a non-conformist.
I learn by taking risks (sometimes) or making mistakes and trying to learn from them.
I surround myself with friends I trust & value their opinions.
That group of friends that I trust is getting smaller. Most are not from church anymore.
I find myself asking the question:
Is the time I’m spending at church wasted?
A 5-minute conversation with my grandson is more rewarding & fulfilling then 60 minutes sitting in silence in SS or PH.
Minyan Man wrote:
I find myself asking the question:Is the time I’m spending at church wasted?
A 5-minute conversation with my grandson is more rewarding & fulfilling then 60 minutes sitting in silence in SS or PH.
This resonates really strongly with me – to the point where I wish that I had summarized my feelings/thoughts like that:)
Thank you.
I think a 5 minute conversation with a family member shouldbe more rewarding and fulfilling than 60 minutes at church. I’d hope that’s the case for even the most orthodox member. The thing that has depressed me in the past is feeling like 60 minutes alone is more rewarding and fulfilling that going to church. In other words, nothing at all becomes the better alternative.
The types of discussions (more like lectures but that’s the subject of a different thread) that go on at church lead me to believe that people go to church seeking validation, they don’t go to church seeking to be challenged. I don’t need that same flavor of validation, so I’m looking more for discussions that challenge. We don’t typically like challenging discussions at church.
I don’t want to take away from people that go to church because they need that validation, so it does begin to fell like a waste of time.
nibbler wrote:
I don’t want to take away from people that go to church because they need that validation, so it does begin to fell like a waste of time.
I know myself enough to know that I too need that validation. I receive validation in my career, hobbies, community service, and other pursuits. Part of my issue is that I feel that my views are actively invalidated at church. I know that it was I that changed in the relationship. I used to find validation, affirmation, and belonging in the same teachings that I now find invalidating. It still hurts.I feel to some extent as though the church has left me, not the other way around. Don’t get me wrong, I love the changes that came early in the Nelson regime. But COVID definitely complicated things. I do miss church in some ways and I do intend to return at some point. While I do use COVID concerns as an excuse, there is also validity to my concerns and as Roy alludes to my concerns are not validated. There are a handful of us who have not returned due to COVID concerns, yet the ward forges ahead with full program (despite the super-spreader ward Christmas party) and they stopped streaming SM 9 months ago. I don’t want to get sick and I don’t want to risk any long term effects of COVID, which seem to strike willy-nilly. I have not been asked once by a ward leader or my ministering brother (also a ward leader who I have regular contact with) what keeps me from coming or how they could help me be comfortable coming. Roy wrote:I used to find validation, affirmation, and belonging in the same teachings that I now find invalidating.
Yes, that’s a better way of putting it.
DarkJedi wrote:I have not been asked once by a ward leader or my ministering brother (also a ward leader who I have regular contact with) what keeps me from coming or how they could help me be comfortable coming.
We attempted to accommodate people by closing church during the initial months of the pandemic, suggesting mask usage after reopening, and offering temporary online options. Maybe that’s just erring on the side of caution. There’s a blurred line between implementing safety measures and accommodating people.
Even then I think our accommodations were presented as this is what you get, take it or leave it. We’re not very good at tailoring the experience to the needs of the individual. Maybe it’s too much of an inconvenience or maybe the thought doesn’t even cross our minds, we’re stuck in looking for rules from the top to tell us how to do mode.
Another complication is that accommodating one group inconveniences another. As an example, asking people to wear masks to get me to come back to church irritates other members that don’t want to wear masks, maybe so much so that they stop attending. There are ways around that problem. Designating one ward in the stake where masks are required… or just continue with the online.
DarkJedi wrote:
There are a handful of us who have not returned due to COVID concerns, yet the ward forges ahead with full program (despite the super-spreader ward Christmas party)They’re probably thinking, why bother with covid restrictions? Everyone in the ward has had it now.
🙂 
I had my first, “Where have you been?” visit a week ago. We told them the only reason we weren’t showing up was due to covid. Our experience has been similar to yours DJ, they didn’t ask what they could do to help us feel more comfortable at church, they just proudly proclaimed that there was no longer a mask suggestion (I refuse to call an unenforced mask requirement a requirement). I told them that relaxing that suggestion made me less likely to return to church, not more likely. They looked flabbergasted.
Let’s face it DJ, we’re in the minority. They’re accommodating the majority and we ain’t it.
Is it just my only ward where the older “true blue” members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon? Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?
Every week it seems to be this way. (I can’t comment on what happens in RS.)
It is interesting, the number of people that congregate in the halls during the class periods. Including the Bishop.
The only time that I’ve had an interesting discussion with our Bishop has been impromptu & spur of the moment in the hallway.
Minyan Man wrote:
Is it just my only ward where the older “true blue” members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon?Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?
Every week it seems to be this way. (I can’t comment on what happens in RS.)
It is interesting, the number of people that congregate in the halls during the class periods. Including the Bishop.
The only time that I’ve had an interesting discussion with our Bishop has been impromptu & spur of the moment in the hallway.
I’m not sure my experience is relevant because I live in a very small and very old ward. I’d say we’re stagnant, but that’s really only true of the older members – several young families we used to have moved away over the last two years. A big day in Primary these days is 4 or 5 kids, often only two – there are more adults there than kids. We have 3 active young men (two of them are brothers), all deacons. Our EQP is one of the youngest guys in the ward and he’s mid-30s, his wife is Primary president and their son is one of the two that regularly show to Primary. When I was ordained a high priest back in the early 90s I was one of the youngest high priests in the ward. I still am.
I guess what I’m getting at here is if us older folks (and I’m on the younger side of them) didn’t speak up no one would because there isn’t much of anyone else. I haven’t been to SS/PH but I do hear a complaint that often a middle aged mentally ill guy often attempts to derail and dominate those meetings with some pretty off the wall stuff and while both the EQP and SS teacher are good about reigning him in he still manages to dominate about 10-15 minutes on any Sunday he’s there (he’s there about half the time). Another reason not to go from my point of view.
And, related and kind of what Roy was saying, among those who moved over the past couple years were several that I could count on as validating or supportive if I did bring up an alternative perspective in one of those meetings. Without them that support is way less now and were I to go I’d most likely keep my mouth shut.
Minyan Man wrote:
Is it just my only ward where the older “true blue” members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon?Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?
It’s definitely not just your ward and I don’t think there’s any unwritten rule. All I can do is answer your question from my perspective and from where I’m sitting I think people are just bored with the lessons, even the most orthodox believing members.
I think people are silent unless called upon because most of the questions are geared towards very specific responses and people are either tired of regurgitating them or they’re afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking like they don’t know the answers in front of others.
I’ve found that it’s hard getting any discussion going at church. I’m not sure why that is other than the material fails to capture people’s interest.
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