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Dear Joni, I have been where you are several times in my life. The anger and frustration are awful. I too had stopped praying several times in my life.
1. was when I had my 3rd and last child. It was a horrible childbirth and my husbands business was not doing well. We went on a picnic for Labor day when my baby was only 2 months old. Some teenage boys started throwing large boulder rocks at us and I almost got knocked down in my back and dropped my baby. I was furious and did not want those boys to get a way with this. I was also very frightened and desperate enough to say: “God, I don’t believe in you any more, but just incase you are there, please help me. I also told God that if He did not want me to stop praying to him to make this boys accountable. They had run away but I had my husband call the police and they found the boys and they did have to pay a price for what they did.
2. When my kids were teens was another time I lost my faith and stopped praying. I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then someone handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. That was a paradigm change for me and from then on I became focused on overcoming my sins and looking to Christ for support and answers.
bridget_night wrote:
Dear Joni,I have been where you are several times in my life. The anger and frustration are awful. I too had stopped praying several times in my life.
1. was when I had my 3rd and last child. It was a horrible childbirth and my husbands business was not doing well. We went on a picnic for Labor day when my baby was only 2 months old. Some teenage boys started throwing large boulder rocks at us and I almost got knocked down in my back and dropped my baby. I was furious and did not want those boys to get a way with this. I was also very frightened and desperate enough to say: “God, I don’t believe in you any more, but just incase you are there, please help me. I also told God that if He did not want me to stop praying to him to make this boys accountable. They had run away but I had my husband call the police and they found the boys and they did have to pay a price for what they did.
2. When my kids were teens was another time I lost my faith and stopped praying. I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then someone handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. That was a paradigm change for me and from then on I became focused on overcoming my sins and looking to Christ for support and answers.
:thumbup: :thumbup: (Especially #2)Update, in case anyone was wondering: DH is still unemployed, and I am still convinced God hates me, in t the absence of evidence to the contrary. It’s starting to look like this layoff is the one that breaks us. Once you’ve been laid off FIVE TIMES, potential employers assume you’ve done something wrong, and won’t touch you with a ten foot pole. Also, has anyone else had a…
weirdexperience with getting food from the bishops storehouse? Literally every time I’ve done it (and this is MY responsibility, not my husband’s) I’ve ended up getting shamed by somebody for doing it wrong. And yet every time we’ve tried to do it, the procedure has been different. And I’m really NOT in a place, mental health wise, where I feel like enduring embarrassment and self loathing for some ground beef and eggs. I suppose the conventional wisdom here would be “beggars can’t be choosers.” Except that we aren’t beggars. The bishop offered this assistance to us (even after we told him that our kids aren’t in any danger of going hungry). And we’ve paid probably $80,000 in tithing over the last twenty-odd years, that’s still a net gain to the church.
Anyway, I’ve picked up a third job and I’m probably going to be going back to school soon. When I do, one of the first things I’m doing is resigning my calling. I’m already spread pretty thin. And I’m no longer concerned about serving God when I already know how He feels about me. There is nothing I can do to gain His love or even His approval, so why even try?
I’ve been reading Tracy McKay’s book The Burning Point, about her first husband’s addiction problems that led to them losing everything and the formation of the Tracy McKay FMH Scholarship. It’s been a great read. I wonder if you’d enjoy it, if for no other reason than knowing of someone else’s struggles. I am so sorry for your continued struggles. I would rather be an atheist than believe that God had it in for me. Please take care of yourself and those around you. Knowing when to say no to outside impositions is especially important when you just holding it together as it is. I am reading a new book. It is written by: Sheryl Sandberg & Adam Grant.
Sheryl Sandberg is COO of Facebook. She is on the Board of Director’s for different Corporations & a noted Professor, etc.
Her husband: David Goldberg died suddenly in 2016 at the age of 47 leaving his wife with (2) young children.
She has written a new book titled: Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy.
In it she details what she is going through & what she’s learned in the process. I’m on page 68 & I highly recommend it.
It isn’t written with the LDS perspective. But the principles apply.
This is some of the things she talks about:
-“I don’t know anyone who has been handed only roses. We all encounter hardships. Some we see coming; others take us by surprise. It can be as tragic as the sudden death of a child, as heartbreaking as a relationship tha unravels, or as disappointing as a dream that goes unfulfilled. The question is: When these things happen, what do we do next?”
-“Resilience is the strength and speed of our response to adversity–and we can build it. It isn’t about having a backbone. It’s about strengthening the muscles around our backbone.”
-“Discrimination, disease, and poverty cause and worsen tragedy. The sad truth is that adversity is not evenly distributed among us; marginalized and disenfranchised groups have more to battle and more to grieve.”
-“We plant the seeds of resilience in the ways we process negative events.”
-The Rabbi who led the funeral for her husband told her to “lean in to the suck & respect your feelings”.
-The conclusion in the 1st chapter: “We all deal with loss: jobs lost, loves lost, lives lost. The question is not whether these things will happen. They will, and we will have to face them. Resilience comes from deep within us and from support outside us. It comes from gratitude for what’s good in our lives and from leaning in to the suck. It comes from analyzing how we process grief and from simply accepting that grief. Sometimes we have less control than we think. Other times we have more. I learned that when life pulls you under, you can kick against the bottom, break the surface, and breathe again.”
One of the problems with the web & sites like ours is: we can’t see each other & look each other in the eye & say,
“I understand what you’re going through”. Many of us know what you’re going through. Many of us have come through the other side & learned from the experience. That is no quick fix. For what it’s worth I personally believe that God is not testing us. I do believe that he let’s things happen that are not pleasant. Some of the time we won’t feel comforted from Church or God for some time. Most people you come in contact with will not understand what you’re going through. Some will. For those who will understand, hold onto them, develop & cherish their friendship. In the end, you will be more empathetic to others who go through what you are experiencing now. (end of the cliches.)
I wish you the best on your journey. Keep coming back & let us know how you’re doing.
Hypothetical question: if a person leaves the Church, but improves her relationship with God, is that a net gain? Obviously I can’t leave the Church (at least not until my husband divorces me), but I sometimes wonder, just as a thought experiment, if I could relate to God the way my mainstream Christian friends do. If you could have a concept of God that isn’t a petty tyrant, minus the 19th century sexism and the weird underwear and the 3 hours of church and the paying 10% on unemployment and the threat of eternal polygamy and the rules about
how many holes I can have in my friggin’ ears, would it be easier to love that God? An orthodox member like my husband would say of course not – that once you leave the Church you have cut yourself off from God’s love forever and ever and ever (unless you come back, of course). But I wonder if a less Calvinist God would work better for me. (Like the one the Episcopalians have. I find it interesting that a lot of ex Mormons end up there.) What I have right now is simply not working.Joni wrote:
Hypothetical question: if a person leaves the Church, but improves her relationship with God, is that a net gain?
I’m an agnostic deist, but I would say this is obviously true. Also, I think there are a lot of people for whom it’s not only possible, but probable.
Joni wrote:
Obviously I can’t leave the Church (at least not until my husband divorces me),
There are a lot of options between resigning and 110% Grade-A-visiting-teaching-RS-presidency-primary-substituting-doing-all-the-Mormon-things activity.
Is divorce likely?
Joni wrote:
but I sometimes wonder, just as a thought experiment, if I could relate to God the way my mainstream Christian friends do. If you could have a concept of God that isn’t a petty tyrant, minus the 19th century sexism and the weird underwear and the 3 hours of church and the paying 10% on unemployment and the threat of eternal polygamy and the rules abouthow many holes I can have in my friggin’ ears, would it be easier to love that God? An orthodox member like my husband would say of course not – that once you leave the Church you have cut yourself off from God’s love forever and ever and ever (unless you come back, of course). But I wonder if a less Calvinist God would work better for me. (Like the one the Episcopalians have. I find it interesting that a lot of ex Mormons end up there.) What I have right now is simply not working.
Is it possible that you’re just a mental step away from what you want?
Do you believe in a God whose plan for you involves eternal polygamy?
Do you believe that he cares how many earrings you wear or that you have certain symbols stitched into your underwear?
Do you believe in a God who privileges men over women?
Do you believe in a God who demands sacrifice to a flawed organization as a condition of salvation?
Do you have to leave the Church in order to know and love the God you want to believe in? Or can you put up with the “outward performances” and 1950s mindset that Mormons love so much and judge each other by?
Quote:Hypothetical question: if a person leaves the Church, but improves her relationship with God, is that a net gain?
I have heard many that say this is the case with them.Joni wrote:
Hypothetical question: if a person leaves the Church, but improves her relationship with God, is that a net gain?
If you don’t believe in the church’s truth claims and social reasons aren’t a factor, what benefit is there to staying in the church *if* you think that you will have a closer relationship to God outside it?
If you are aware of all the factors involved that you can net it all out, then anything that leads to greater peace, happiness, goodness, closeness to God or any idea of positive energy in the universe, is a net gain. Especially if it helps the person in doinggood positive loving things, and feelinggood about their life. We don’t advocate that here, because we feel there is a way to find all that AND stay LDS…but I think for some, that peace is to be found by leaving the church.
Just 3 weeks ago I was asked to re-baptize a nice older woman in our ward. A few decades ago she had her records removed from the church, and left it for good. She later found her kids involved in the church, tuaght by the missionaries and teenage daughter baptized, she missed what she had, and came back to go through the process to get permission to be rebaptized, which was a spiritual experience. It means a lot to her now.
My point is…sometimes when you lose yourself, you find yourself. There are many paths for that as we seek to become what God wants of us. And it isn’t final if a person leaves the church. They can come back. So i don’t really see a downside in exploring paths that lead to a person’s peace and happiness, as long as that person is always trading up to find more goodness and peace in their life. The net gain can be for that person’s good, and sometimes they separate out what was/wasn’t church from their spiritual journey with God directly. That can work for some.
Heber13 wrote:
The net gain can be for that person’s good, and sometimesthey separate out what was/wasn’t church from their spiritual journey with God directly.That can work for some. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: To be perfectly honest, Joni, I believe you need to get your mental and emotional health issues worked out in order to find any sort of religious peace – and I also think, as part of that process, you need to sort out and face your feelings regarding your husband and your marriage. You talk about your husband divorcing you. If you truly feel trapped in your marriage, do you want to think about divorce without waiting for him? No matter who initiates it, would the end result be the same? What are your own feelings about it? I’m not suggesting anything, but I think you need to think about it and figure it out. Finally, you need to figure out and accept your own view of God, independent of anyone else. I have no idea what you need to do, ultimately, since all I know is what you have shared here. So . . .
I know I have asked this in the past, but are you seeing a professional about your issues? Is that possible? My only suggestion is to do that, if there is any way possible to do it. Your health is the most important thing right now.
Joni, I’m sorry for the tough times, and even sorrier that you and your husband are at such a standoff. My sister had a very troubled young adulthood and some mental illness. At one point she lived with us and I took it upon myself to make church attendance a condition of our help. Yeah. Looking back I wish I had given her space. Maybe she just needed a fresh start with God and religion instead of beating her head against the wall of the church and all her childhood memories. Maybe that’s why most converts convert. It’s not actually The Truth; it’s My Second Try or The Next Step. Maybe you’ll read fifty pages of Episcopalian materials and say, Nope. Maybe you’ll feel hope and curiosity.
ydeve wrote:
Joni wrote:
Hypothetical question: if a person leaves the Church, but improves her relationship with God, is that a net gain?
If you don’t believe in the church’s truth claims and social reasons aren’t a factor, what benefit is there to staying in the church *if* you think that you will have a closer relationship to God outside it?
That sounds like a retorical question, but in. Case it is not then locigally there isn’t much of a reason to stay.
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