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There is a fascinating article in the New York Times from last month entitled, “Those Aren’t Fighting Words, Dear”. I would LOVE to have a discussion about it, but I am not going to excerpt from it. I don’t want to limit the possible discussion by pulling a few quotes out of it. I really would like to have people read the entire thing, then comment on it here.
The link is:
What a great article! This should be required reading for all marrieds. Thank you Ray, this is one of the reasons that an online community can enrich a life, you’ve pointed out a resource that I would have never, ever run into. So I am at a bit of an impass. The article is fabulous, I too am married to a horse woman and she is very capable of the same kind of distancing when it is needed so I greatly admire Laura Munson (the author of the NY article) and her strength of character. The impass is, I agree with you, I don’t want to pull out some quotes and start detailed discussion because I think people should hop right there and read the article, it is well worth the time (say 10 minutes max) to read a story about a courageous, strong, very wise woman who managed to defuse a potential marriage breakup by simply refusing to engage in the fight.
So, Ray, I am ready to talk more about this and will talk more about this but I think I will wait a day or two until more people have taken a look, sound sensible?
(By the way, this kind of resource strikes me as something you may want to get permission to store here on Stay LDS or on the wiki you are developing (you are developing a wiki aren’t you?) as part of “advice for being in a relationship” section or something like that. )
Another by the way: this is Laura Munson’s blog:
http://lauramunson.wordpress.com/ This would be a great place to direct people who want to discuss/share marriage issues. Laura is a writer and she wants to talk to people and she has a lot of comments on her blog of people responding to the NY Times piece as well.This is going to sound like the most self-serving thing but I read that article last night probably about the time Ray was posting it and I pulled it out of the paper and put it on my DW’s nightstand (she was already asleep). Yes, I’m that far behind on my paper and yes, I get the NYT 😳 😳 I don’t ever pull articles from the newspaper for my DW, so… obviously I agree with Ray on the super-ness of this one.
We’ve talked alot about detachment and over-coming codependency and this is the most beautiful example of someone who was committed to it and did it. Not perfectly all the time, as she said, but she was engaged and present enough to not allow her moments of insecurity come out.
I agree with hawkgrrrl 100%, this should be required reading for anyone who is married/devoted.
I would love to hear people’s thoughts on how this can work in parenting as well. Sorry, Ray, to add to the thread but, for selfish reasons, I’d love to hear stories about anyone here who has practiced this type of detachment with their kids.
How it applies, where it works, what does it feel like?
I had a good instance of practicing this with my 10yr old recently but I’ll share it later.
HOLY POWERFUL! I love this article! Of course, 98% of us wouldn’t be able to do what she did…but she gets it! Most of the time when one lashes out at their partner, it is their own stuff. But how many of us realize that and don’t lash back?!
But she was real and had her own doubts along the way. She did set her own boundaries, and fortunately he came around in time. I’m a firm believer in the concept that we are responsible for our own happiness, and the minute we start thinking another is, we’ve got to do our own work.
Thanks for posting this!
Have at it: Post quotes and start the discussion. Old-Timer wrote:Have at it: Post quotes and start the discussion.
Okay I’ll bite (slow day at the office today…
😆 ). The man said: ““I don’t love you anymore. I’m not sure I ever did. I’m moving out. The kids will understand. They’ll want me to be happy.”A few things stood out for me. His snap-shot perception of the relationship was that it had always been strained, loveless and routine. He thinks he needs the romance he is NOW imagining — the excitement, passion, something new. And he thinks it will all appear if he leaves his wife and family.
She describes her life as bliss.
Where’s the disconnect? I think it is in their different levels of understanding — of how life happens. And I think it is a common problem in relationships — all kinds. Spouses, parent/child, friends, etc. She understands that she makes her happiness. He is a key “player” in it, but it is up to her to be happy. The players change, move, grow…but she is always the same. And she knows it.
He expects happiness to come to him. He deserves it. He sees it in movies, so it must be true. And when it doesn’t, it is somebody else’s fault…so he must “leave” to allow his bliss to come to him. Elsewhere. Thus the phrase, “the grass is greener….”
It ain’t true.
She is a genius to recognize that he will learn this in time. I don’t think most of us are that smart! My parents divorced in the late 60s — a rare occurence then. My dad was the man in the story. After a year, he started begging her to take him back…but mom had moved on. It was too late. Even recently he has told me he made a big mistake. But it’s too bad we don’t understand these things as they happen to us. So many lessons in life we must learn the hard way.
I’ve certainly had my share!
Quote:She is a genius to recognize that he will learn this in time.
That’s what’s amazing about the article!
I also think it’s important to realize how to keep ourselves out of the emotional escalation with our teenage kids. A wise teacher of mine once said that teenagers HAVE TO rebel against their elders in order to become adults, so adults would be foolish to take that personally. It is necessary. It is emotionally healthy. It is required for human development. Kids push the boundaries in the home because it is a safe environment. If they behaved that way outside the home, they’d get their trash kicked!
Good article. I can see how to apply this to the exact situation she outlined, but have no idea how to apply it to other situations. I don’t think I’m catching the vision you all are.
I liked the article. A lot. There is a trap, a caveat, a danger. The words “I don’t buy it” mean nothing in the big scheme of things. Even the sentiment means nothing. What is meaningful is the fact that somehow she avoided communicating to him condemnation for expressing his deepest needs. And she stepped aside and smiled as he walked his walk in his own way.
In my marriage or another marriage, her approach would have fallen flat on its face. But what will always succeed is accepting responsibility for my own happiness and trusting (even rejoicing in) the agency of my spouse. That’s the deep, difficult, and amazing truth of the article.
Tom
Tom Haws wrote:I liked the article. A lot.
There is a trap, a caveat, a danger. The words “I don’t buy it” mean nothing in the big scheme of things. Even the sentiment means nothing. What is meaningful is the fact that somehow she avoided communicating to him condemnation for expressing his deepest needs. And she stepped aside and smiled as he walked his walk in his own way.
In my marriage or another marriage, her approach would have fallen flat on its face. But what will always succeed is accepting responsibility for my own happiness and trusting (even rejoicing in) the agency of my spouse. That’s the deep, difficult, and amazing truth of the article.
Tom
Good points, Tom! I think her direct confrontation to him might have triggered a “well, I’ll show you!” sort of response with most of us. I agree with her understanding of his “stuff,” but the approach might be a challenge. As you said though, understanding who is responsible for his happiness is the key, and I love that message!
Required reading for all adult human beings. There will be a pop quiz at some point later in life. hawkgrrrl wrote:I also think it’s important to realize how to keep ourselves out of the emotional escalation with our teenage kids. A wise teacher of mine once said that teenagers HAVE TO rebel against their elders in order to become adults, so adults would be foolish to take that personally. It is necessary. It is emotionally healthy. It is required for human development. Kids push the boundaries in the home because it is a safe environment. If they behaved that way outside the home, they’d get their trash kicked!
I’ve had that conversation with my oldest two teenagers before (ages 18 and 16). It’s funny to see their expression when the punch line finally sinks in.
They will get all mad at us for something, because life sucks and we are not getting everything right (as parents and adults). They start ranting about whatever is bothering them. I let them go until they are done. Then I ask “You are pretty mad, right? You are frustrated and think you can do it better, right?” Yes. That is their answer. Then I say “Good. Cause if you liked it too much at home you would never hate us enough to move out. I sincerely hope you do grow up and fix the problems in the world. I hope you do things better than your mother and I, and better than our parents did, and better than all those people before us.”
They get it. We’re on the same team. And I really do hope they make the world a better place. The world is a mess. I’m doing what I can, but I have a feeling it won’t all get fixed before I kick the bucket.
Wonderful, Valoel. So if we never rebelled in my family, we were co-dependent? Where is Rix? Tom Haws wrote:So if we never rebelled in my family, we were co-dependent?
Rix will have good insight but I’ll take a stab.
It’s not always the way we act that demonstrates co-dependency. It’s how we think, mostly about ourselves, but also, in part, how we think that other people think about us.
The idea is that if someone is co-dependent, they derive all or part of their approval, validation, acceptance, reward system from others, rather than from themselves. So, it’s a question of motivation. Why are you doing what you’re doing? Why are you feeling the way you’re feeling? Why are you thinking the way you’re thinking?
Obviously, to talk in these terms we must focus on the inner-life. If you’re acting because of an external reward, or for fear of an external consequence, you may be doing it for co-dependent reasons. Which, of course, makes us all at least a little bit co-dependent.
So, if you didn’t rebel, was it because you knew in your heart that it was the wrong thing to do, regardless of whether you were going to get praise for not rebelling or fear of the consequences, at least the external consequences?
I think that’s the key: why do you do it or not do it? If the answer has something to do with someone else, it may be co-dependent.
If we know and believe in our hearts that we are good people and will always try to make the right decisions, then we’re not acting under the influence of some external source. Hence, the term “dependent”.
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