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DarkJedi wrote:
Back in the day the Book of Mormon was sold or sometimes given. Books were often handed around in those days because they weren’t common and many people couldn’t afford them (these are reasons most people, apparently including Joseph Smith, learned to read from the Bible – it was the only book most people had). As a related aside, Joseph took a huge loss on the $3000 printing/publication of the book (as did Martin Harris, much to the consternation of Mrs. Harris). That book was not divided into chapters and verses as we know it today, and missionaries didn’t turn to Moroni and talk about the promise (which is really to the Lamanites anyway). While some copies were distributed by missionaries, a fair number (handed around, etc.) were not and thus the book spoke for itself. With some frequency I say I don’t believe the BoM is what it claims to be (gold plates, story of ancient Americans, etc.) but it is a book about faith in Jesus Christ and can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. It does this all on its own, no Moroni’s promise needed. Many of those early church leaders were converted by the book alone (including Brigham Young), having never met a missionary or apostle or Joseph Smith. It does have a power all its own, and I think as OT intimates we sometimes diminish that power by moving the focus away from it.
I hope this isn’t off topic. About 40 yrs ago, I was at a rare book dealers shop & I asked him if he ever was in contact with a 1st edition BOM.
He said no but a friend had one & it was for sale. To make the story short, I bought the book for $3500. It was in perfect condition. I kept it at
home & I rarely opened it. I was always worried that I would damage it. So, I sold it to someone in my ward for the same price I paid for it.
The lesson for me was: it belonged in a museum & what good is it if you can’t or won’t use it.
Recently I looked online & there are copies for sale today at about $100,000.
I always suspected that someone found it in college library & walked off with it. The price seemed too low for 1984.
Minyan Man wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Back in the day the Book of Mormon was sold or sometimes given. Books were often handed around in those days because they weren’t common and many people couldn’t afford them (these are reasons most people, apparently including Joseph Smith, learned to read from the Bible – it was the only book most people had). As a related aside, Joseph took a huge loss on the $5000 printing/publication of the book (as did Martin Harris, much to the consternation of Mrs. Harris). That book was not divided into chapters and verses as we know it today, and missionaries didn’t turn to Moroni and talk about the promise (which is really to the Lamanites anyway). While some copies were distributed by missionaries, a fair number (handed around, etc.) were not and thus the book spoke for itself. With some frequency I say I don’t believe the BoM is what it claims to be (gold plates, story of ancient Americans, etc.) but it is a book about faith in Jesus Christ and can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. It does this all on its own, no Moroni’s promise needed. Many of those early church leaders were converted by the book alone (including Brigham Young), having never met a missionary or apostle or Joseph Smith. It does have a power all its own, and I think as OT intimates we sometimes diminish that power by moving the focus away from it.
I hope this isn’t off topic. About 40 yrs ago, I was at a rare book dealers shop & I asked him if he ever was in contact with a 1st edition BOM.
He said no but a friend had one & it was for sale. To make the story short, I bought the book for $3500. It was in perfect condition. I kept it at
home & I rarely opened it. I was always worried that I would damage it. So, I sold it to someone in my ward for the same price I paid for it.
The lesson for me was: it belonged in a museum & what good is it if you can’t or won’t use it.
Recently I looked online & there are copies for sale today at about $100,000.
I always suspected that someone found it in college library & walked off with it. The price seemed too low for 1984.
Original copies of the BoM are certainly rare. The only ones I have seen are in museums. A quick Google search says the church believes there are about 700 left, which is more than I thought. Living where I do I always check out book sales in the off chance fantasy I might find one some grandma had in the attic that belonged to her grandma or something. Alas, no such luck.
DarkJedi explained my comment as well as I could have. 🙂 To return to the original post’s focus, I see faith as what motivates discovery and non-organic change (change that wouldn’t happen naturally).
It takes belief in the unseen to do the unseeable.
Old-Timer wrote:
DarkJedi explained my comment as well as I could have.🙂 To return to the original post’s focus,
I see faith as what motivates discovery and non-organic change (change that wouldn’t happen naturally).It takes belief in the unseen to do the unseeable.
I see that explanation — as I said in my Opening Post, I get faith is necessary to motivate action, but when it comes to the facts of eternal life, that’s where I am fuzzy on the reliability and necessity of faith. There are so many people who have faith in their own religion, and they can’t all be right.
Yep, there is no certainty, since so many people are certain of different views, which means it all is based on faith. Even atheists rely on faith, in a very real way, which makes faith perhaps THE most unique, important aspect of being human.
nibbler wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
But I said earlier that relief from accountability (damning as you put it OT) does not hold water with me because the scriptures have heaps of accountability for not believing.
What is scripture and why should what a particular scripture say matter?
Scripture is inspired guidance from God, often given through authorized human beings. We should pay attention to scripture because it’s the best indicator of God’s will for us that we have. That would be my standardized sort of answer to Nibbler’s question. Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
SilentDawning wrote:
nibbler wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
But I said earlier that relief from accountability (damning as you put it OT) does not hold water with me because the scriptures have heaps of accountability for not believing.
What is scripture and why should what a particular scripture say matter?
Scripture is inspired guidance from God, often given through authorized human beings. We should pay attention to scripture because it’s the best indicator of God’s will for us that we have. That would be my standardized sort of answer to Nibbler’s question. Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
I’m going to jump in here too:)
1. The “Authorized” human beings communicate the “inspired guidance from God”. They rely on their authority (and individuals believing in their authority) to prove the “inspiration”. We as potential believers have to “take them at their word” that what they are saying as “containing the word of God” actually is what God would have us to understand (which is a big ask honestly) or “suffer the consequences”.
2. There is an assumption there that God’s will for us is determined by how much attention we are paying to a bunch of words (written and/or verbal).
The biggest blind spot I see in the LDS theology is that *most scripture* is written by and directed by men. And when women’s voices are interwoven in the scriptural experience (and in the case of the Old and New Testament with fidelity/accuracy – which is unknown), it is mostly women listening to those and for those words.
I think it matters if our “scriptures” do not include a diversity of voices. I think it matters that women’s voices are generally benevolently put on the pedestal of “mother’s sayings” and “Mother’s Day” topics. I think it matters greatly that our hierarchy needs male signoff of women’s voices.
I think that the LDS definitions of scripture to what has been canonized into the standard works and general conference talks matters greatly and that great sources of “scripture” are not making that cut (including a lot of C.S. Lewis’s works that didn’t get quoted in conference).
I think the purpose of believing things that we cannot see is to give us comfort, meaning, and purpose sufficient to live our lives more fully and less fearfully. I think that religion at its best accomplishes this purpose and religion at its worst does the opposite.
SilentDawning wrote:
Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
I think whatever we believe to be scripture is scripture and that’s going to be different for every individual. I don’t think scripture has inherent authority. It only has the authority that we ourselves give it.
Consider LDS canon. Why the Bible and not the Quran, or Bhagavad Gita, or Tipitaka, etc.? Why the KJV of the Bible and not the NRSV? Why not the Apocrypha?
In some cases the decision over what is and is not considered authoritative has already been made for the individual. We believe the Bible is authoritative because that was the environment in which we cut our spiritual teeth. But what made the Bible the Bible? Who made the Bible authoritative? The Council of Rome? The Council of Rome gave us a head start and something to look to but ultimately it’s the individual that decided to believe that the Bible is authoritative.
The LDS church cut its spiritual teeth in an environment where the Bible was already considered authoritative. Even so, we’ve grown into the position where we consider some parts of the Bible authoritative and other parts less so. We say the Song of Solomon isn’t authoritative. Generally any part of the Bible that supports a LDS doctrine is viewed as authoritative and any part of the Bible that doesn’t support a LDS doctrine gets the “as far as it is translated correctly” write-off.
Who does this? Who arbitrates? There are lots of factors. Our tribe and tribal leaders factor into what we see as authoritative. It’s LDS canon because that’s what the LDS church has agreed upon as being authoritative. It’s like a book club dedicated to Piers Anthony. You’re going to be reading and discussing Piers Anthony books.
But ultimately it’s the individual that decides. An individual can believe the LDS canon is authoritative, not authoritative, or that some of it is authoritative and some of it is not. I suppose I’d put myself in the latter category. Some of it resonates, some of it doesn’t. I don’t spend a lot of effort trying to force the pieces that don’t resonate, I just give them the Song of Solomon treatment. It’s still there in the canon but largely ignored without angst over trying to make it fit.
SilentDawning wrote:
Scripture is inspired guidance from God, often given through authorized human beings.
Ultimately I think
weare the authorized human being. Going back to what I wrote above, why this religious text and not the other? Why this book of the Bible and not the other? Why this verse and not the other? It’s not all or nothing; take what inspires, enlightens, and uplifts and leave the rest. Not every verse is a winner. Is it Pope Damasus decreed that this human being was authorized or do we decree? Are we in a position to decree for others what is and isn’t authoritative, or are we only in a position to decree for ourselves? If only for ourselves, then why do we extend the power to decree for others to Pope Damasus or Joseph Smith or Russell Nelson or… because they’re authorized human beings too? If so, only because we gave them that authorization. We believe it to be so, therefore it is so.
SilentDawning wrote:
Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
Things that inspire me to do better. Things that enlighten me. Things that give comfort.
Be it from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Diamond Sutra, an episode of Nova, a song on the radio, etc. To further drive home the point, maybe not even the entire song on the radio, maybe just one line and one line only from the song.
Authority doesn’t factor much into the equation. Something that’s not authoritative can be useful, some things that are authoritative are not useful.
nibbler wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
Scripture is inspired guidance from God, often given through authorized human beings.
Ultimately I think
weare the authorized human being. Going back to what I wrote above, why this religious text and not the other? Why this book of the Bible and not the other? Why this verse and not the other? It’s not all or nothing; take what inspires, enlightens, and uplifts and leave the rest. Not every verse is a winner.
I keep coming back to this point in my life. My faith transition did me the biggest favor in plopping myself right smack in the middle of identifying myself as and learning how to be my personal moral authority. I had futzed around with it before and gotten into social trouble at church for “not knowing my place”, but realizing that I was the only one who had the biggest skin in the game of this round of the Game of Life really made it sink in what the scope of what decisions I was capable of making were.
nibbler wrote:
Is it Pope Damasus decreed that this human being was authorized or do we decree? Are we in a position to decree for others what is and isn’t authoritative, or are we only in a position to decree for ourselves? If only for ourselves, then why do we extend the power to decree for others to Pope Damasus or Joseph Smith or Russell Nelson or… because they’re authorized human beings too? If so, only because we gave them that authorization. We believe it to be so, therefore it is so.
As a parent, it was motivating to realize that “I was the voice in my children’s head” that they would absorb and use to tell them things throughout their lives. I have worked with great energy and intention to make my words effective and useful, to focus on creating “win-win” situations and to make it easier for my children to identify what their values are and what is the best way to manage that. On some level, I am “writing scripture” for them and coaching them into practicing critical thinking and autonomy. It’s a very long process with quite a few detours, but this resonates with me.
nibbler wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
Nibbler — what do you think scripture is, and whether what a particular scripture says matters?
Things that inspire me to do better. Things that enlighten me. Things that give comfort.
Be it from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Diamond Sutra, an episode of Nova, a song on the radio, etc. To further drive home the point, maybe not even the entire song on the radio, maybe just one line and one line only from the song.
Authority doesn’t factor much into the equation. Something that’s not authoritative can be useful, some things that are authoritative are not useful.
There are lots of songs that have lyrics that are meaningful to me. I’m in my 40’s now, and it took me about 30 years to realize that I use song lyrics to identify my emotions. In the last year, I finally started mentioning applicable song lyrics in specific circumstances to my mom, my therapist, and my husband and dealing with a lot of “Yes – that’s nice, but…” in different configurations. It’s such a gift now to have a song lyric pop in my head and I can say to myself, “self – why this song lyric right now, what is the meaning and the emotions being conveyed?” and get honest answers instead of half-guesses.
I asked artificial intelligence why God doesn’t supply us with a clear path to heaven. Here is the answer I got. I thought it was a pretty good answer:
Quote:
The question of why God doesn’t provide a clear path to heaven is one that has been explored by theologians, philosophers, and believers throughout history. Different religious traditions offer various explanations, but here are a few common perspectives:1. **Free Will**: Many believe that God values human free will and wants people to choose to seek and follow Him out of love and genuine desire, rather than compulsion. A clear and unmistakable path might diminish the role of faith and choice in the relationship between God and humanity.
2. **Faith and Trust**: The journey to heaven is often seen as one of faith and trust. The lack of absolute clarity may encourage believers to trust in God, develop a deeper spiritual connection, and grow in their faith. It’s in the process of seeking and questioning that many people find a more profound sense of purpose and understanding.
3. **Personal Growth and Testing**: Some traditions hold that life’s challenges and uncertainties are a way to test and strengthen a person’s character, faith, and virtues. The struggle to find the right path can lead to spiritual growth and a closer relationship with God.
4. **Mystery and the Divine**: God’s ways are sometimes described as mysterious or beyond human understanding. The complexities and ambiguities in the path to heaven could be a reflection of the divine nature that transcends human reasoning.
5. **Diversity of Belief**: Different religious traditions offer varied teachings about the path to heaven. Some suggest that this diversity reflects the different ways people can experience and understand the divine, allowing for a more inclusive approach to spirituality.
These perspectives are not exhaustive, and individual beliefs may vary depending on one’s religious or philosophical outlook.
nibbler wrote:
I think whatever we believe to be scripture is scripture and that’s going to be different for every individual. I don’t think scripture has inherent authority. It only has the authority that we ourselves give it….[and so on]…Very interesting thoughts Nibbler. I actually pasted most of your post above into my journal as perhaps the final word on this subject for me, for now.
Thanks,
SD
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