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Hey all, I could use some advice here. I’m on (what I hope to be) the downward slope of my faith crisis. I’ve done all the looking/seeking/learning/thinking etc. I feel that I need to do in order to get a decent picture of what the church really is. I know I’ve stated that more difinitivly than I should and will likely get called out for calling my research complete, but that’s the way it feels right now. As I’ve gone through these last discoveries, etc. I’ve become really interested in the Bushmans and the “stage-5” mormons and have been wondering how/when I could hope to get there. I’ve found a problem though, or at least what seems to be a problem for me. It’s that I don’t want to be a member of the Church. I don’t like it. I never have. And that missing element seems to be a driving factor for the more advanced stages of acceptance. I guess now that I’m writing this I’m not sure how much of my dislike is temporary and how much I disliked the church before this all started. I know I’ve never loved it, I’m not social, I don’t like basketball, I’ve never really had a friend in the church that I was at all close to. So how in the heck am I supposed to get through this when I can’t even make myself want to? Will that come later? I imagine the first answers will be about looking for good in the church, and I know there’s good, but I think all that good could be found elsewhere as well. I wish this wasn’t so hard. Sometimes you just need to take a break. Do other things on Sunday, don’t think about it, just let it go for a little while and then see how you feel. You may miss it and you may find that you feel and do better. IMHO Exactly what GB said. Have you tried a break for 2-3 months of no church? Have you tried to substitute other things for it to compare? RocketMonkey34 wrote:I guess now that I’m writing this I’m not sure how much of my dislike is temporary and how much I disliked the church before this all started.
This part you wrote made me think that you are unsure of the temporary or permanent feelings around this, which makes me think a permanent action like resigning or publicly denouncing it would not be wise.
The Church isn’t going anywhere. You can always return if you find you miss it. But part of the journey is understanding yourself and what really is important to you, and if these feelings really have anything to do with the church or something else in your life or what you need to learn.
Alma teaches to try the experiment. Plant a seed and nourish it and see if it grows.
I’m sorry it is hard at this point. But it usually has to get hard enough that it demands a choice and an action. Then we learn in ways we can’t by just studying and thinking about it.
Somedays I don’t want to be an American or a husband or a father or an employee or a church member and I take time off from all of those for a short time and that is just what I have to do to stay healthy but in the end I know that I will miss them or they will miss me so I never take too long of a break. Some times I’m just not very good at all the above mentioned items (usually not at the same time) and I’m pretty much OK with that. I mostly try not to burn any bridges. RocketMonkey34 wrote:It’s that I don’t want to be a member of the Church. I don’t like it. I never have. And that missing element seems to be a driving factor for the more advanced stages of acceptance. I guess now that I’m writing this I’m not sure how much of my dislike is temporary and how much I disliked the church before this all started. I know I’ve never loved it, I’m not social, I don’t like basketball, I’ve never really had a friend in the church that I was at all close to. So how in the heck am I supposed to get through this when I can’t even make myself want to? Will that come later? I imagine the first answers will be about looking for good in the church, and I know there’s good, but I think all that good could be found elsewhere as well. I wish this wasn’t so hard.
First of all, welcome to StayLDS. You’re asking a good support question, but before I answer much here, it might be a good idea to post an introduction about your faith journey in introductions, and answer some of the obvious questions: where and when did you have experiences of faith in the church. what caused your disaffection. etc. It always helps to tell your story.Second, This site is about staying LDS… I think that may be implied in the name, and staying a member of the church may have something to do with that. There are many times I don’t want to be a member, but other times I do, and when I balance my desire for authenticity with my desire to support wife and family, i find that being authentic within the faith as a member works for me. A lot depends upon your own situation.
Fowler’s stages of faith are not something you rush through or graduate from. They’re ongoing conditions of our lives. There are days when i think I’m in stage 2 or 3 — or would like to be there in a way. Others perhaps different. I don’t care, because in the end, i am what i am. And if I am authentically present in my current reality, I don’t think life can get any better than that.
The church is neither good or bad — it’s simply a vehicle and place for people to gather together and support each other. That has value. What you make of the church is up to you.
The other thing to consider is: how much are you willing to invest? I have a couple close relationships in the church. One is my home teacher.
I’ve discovered recently that there are some members that I like to HT.
If I can find some activity that interests me, I participate.
If I can’t I try to find another activity.
Lately, it has been inside church. (I hope this makes sense.)
Mike from Milton.
First of all, welcome to the site. Quote:I’ve done all the looking/seeking/learning/thinking etc. I feel that I need to do in order to get a decent picture of what the church really is.
I am skeptical. You may be crystallizing your own narrative of that, but it’s not really the same thing. The church is complex like a person, actually even more complex than an individual person – how do you take the measure of a man? You really can’t. And as with a person, it is constantly changing. In any case, I get what you are saying, but I caution you from thinking you
canknow what the church “really is.” Your opinion may be formed, but that’s all. If you really want to get to Stage 5, beware of set opinions. Here’s an example. I’ve done an exercise like this with people at work. For example, you said you have never really had a good friend at church. I’ve had that feeling at different times in my life, too, and if I were to fill out the grid for this exercise, here’s what I would write:
I SEE . . . people who are not interesting, don’t think deeply, aren’t that smart, don’t question.
I ACT . . . aloof, bored, complacent. I set my own boundaries with the organization and limit my participation with these people.
THEY SEE . . . someone who isn’t engaging or engaged. Someone who barely makes eye contact, who isn’t interested in them.
THEY ACT . . . they ignore me or deal more with people who engage with them and make them feel important.
If you reframe how you see things, that changes the outcome:
I SEE . . . people who have a lot of potential, are doing the best they can, are trying to be happy or are happy with their lives.
I ACT . . . interested in why they are happy or how they are happy; I want to help them realize their potential by participating in discussion with them.
THEY SEE . . . someone who makes eye contact and is interested in them and has interesting things to say.
THEY ACT . . . they seek me out and want to talk to me because they know how interesting I am and that I’m interested in them.
Anyway, based on your opening salvo, that’s my advice to you. I use this exercise whenever I have difficulty working with someone to remind myself that none of us has a poker face. We create the relationships we have.
If you’re wondering if you should withdraw your membership, I usually try to discourage that. leave your options open for another time in your life when your perspective might change through life experiences….as far as the now goes….well, the concept of a Stage 5 Mormon is one that I think develops over time, as you talk about each element of the church that disturbs you, piece by piece. Take it apart, look at it, hear the perspectives of others, and decide what you think until you feel at peace with the idea…then move on to the next one. Repeat until you get to the point you feel at peace being a member of the church — most of the time. Recognize things will likely always bother you, although if your experience is like mine, they will get less over time. And leave yourself open to change at any time should life point you in that direction.
hawkgrrrl wrote:If you reframe how you see things, that changes the outcome:
I SEE . . . people who have a lot of potential, are doing the best they can, are trying to be happy or are happy with their lives.
I ACT . . . interested in why they are happy or how they are happy; I want to help them realize their potential by participating in discussion with them.
THEY SEE . . . someone who makes eye contact and is interested in them and has interesting things to say.
THEY ACT . . . they seek me out and want to talk to me because they know how interesting I am and that I’m interested in them.
Good advice.
RocketMonkey,
If for some reason, you can’t take a break from church literally… maybe you can learn to separate it mentally.
Personally, my church experience is not so much about learning from what is taught. It’s more about a convenient way to connect with others – to love & be loved.
To me, spiritual growth is a never-ending process of learning to love others as ourselves – in harmony & balance.
To enjoy church during the preachy parts that I don’t agree with, I study scriptures or another good book & have redefined gospel terms in ways that I feel are more uplifting & inspiring.
Even if you’re introverted like I am, my guess is you still enjoy some kind of connection with others.
Most people are caught up in the symbols (which may be what’s bugging you) & many neglect to see what the symbols point to: basically loving others as ourselves.
Welcome. Faith crises suck, but there are ways to deal with them and be stronger in the end – due primarily to constructing and owning your own individual faith and focusing on service over doctrine. Live a life focused on love, and most people won’t care about the nuances of your beliefs – as long as you don’t try to convert them to those beliefs.
“We love him, because he first loves us” has a lot of practical power for us and how we interact with others – especially those who see things differently than we do.
The following is a link to a profound experience that a friend shared with me a while ago. I hope it helps in some way:
“Someone Needs You Every Single Day”( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/12/someone-needs-you-every-single-day.html RocketMonkey34 wrote:I don’t like it. I never have. I know I’ve never loved it, I’m not social, I don’t like basketball, I’ve never really had a friend in the church that I was at all close to.
I wonder if the first chinks in your Stage 3 Faith armor developed for the same reasons that mine did. I’ll be interested to read your introduction.What do you dislike about the Church? I’d be interested to know. I can sympathize with some of what you’ve said. I’ll tell you a few of my thoughts.
Much of my initial disillusionment came because I am not a good cultural fit for the the Church. I’m good at science, math, and baseball (plus a lot of other ball sports, but I’m not super awesome at basketball); but LDS culture seems to favor guys who are good at business, socializing, basketball, and skiing. Mormon culture likes men who are outgoing, social, and entertaining; I’m an introverted thinker and a problem-solver. LDS culture is also suspicious of scientists because they talk about evolution and the the Big Bang Theory of cosmology, which ruffles the feathers of folks who prefer a literal interpretation of Genesis. So being a scientist/problem-solver/creative intellectual in a religious culture that values socialites/businessmen/entertainers has been very hard. I spent a long time trying to be what Mormon culture wanted me to be. I spent a long time trying to develop the social skills that a good Mormon ought to have, and it worked to some degree, but I’ll never be the outgoing entertaining socialite that a good Mormon is expected to be.
I’ve acquired several LDS friends that I’ve been reasonably close to, but that has been only after significant effort.
There are some things about the Church that I like and some I don’t. I like the “clean living” values, among other things. I don’t like the culture very much, especially when it seems to lean towards being very politically conservative and somewhat anti-intellectual and anti-science. And I don’t like the fact that my talents are not the talents that an ideal cultural Mormon ought to have.
GBSmith wrote:Sometimes you just need to take a break. Do other things on Sunday, don’t think about it, just let it go for a little while and then see how you feel. You may miss it and you may find that you feel and do better. IMHO
This is where I am. Maybe a break would be good for me and I may find I miss the Church in ways I didn’t know I would. But it might upset at least one of my roommates (all of my roommates seem to be TBMs,) who, after I told him about my faith crisis two days ago, said that he wished he’d made church attendance a condition of all new roommates who’d move in. I don’t know what I’m going to do about that. But I think I need a break.
Yep, some context would be helpful. What is your current motivation for staying connected? BTW, being in stage 5 and being or staying LDS are not necessarily the same thing, or even correlated. There are no hard and fast rules in the process of spiritual growth. For me this makes the journey much more meaningful. Welcome!
InquiringMind wrote:But it might upset at least one of my roommates who, after I told him about my faith crisis two days ago, said that he wished he’d made church attendance a condition of all new roommates who’d move in.
Sigh …:problem: Yeah, sounds like you could use a break.There are many things I dislike about being a member, which I will not elaborate here. But there are a few that I still like so I guess I just choose to enjoy those few things and do my best to ignore all the other baloney. Great advice above. My addition:
There isn’t a required reading list or set study. If you are satisfied, you are satisfied. I would add another recommendation to leave the door open on the subject — not just about the church, but lots of things and people you know in life. It’s natural for us as humans to seek resolution and conclusions, wrap things up in to nice mental packages, and to put things into simplified categories. I think we can figure out quickly what the church is not, which was whatever we used to think it was before our faith crisis. I don’t think it’s so easy to figure out what a complex organization like a church “really is” though. It’s a lot of things to a lot of people over time.
But yeah, you can figure out that the church wasn’t what you thought it was. Balloons are easier to pop than to inflate.
Our community is pretty good at helping people to see things from alternate perspectives and to think differently about things. Liking the church experience isn’t something we can help a lot with. Some people live in less functional ward areas (ask Cwald …). There can be other factors.
Also, I agree with taking breaks. They can be healthy sometimes while you sort things out.
Stage 5 (and all Fowler stages) isn’t about staying or leaving. It’s a different way of processing faith content. It takes time, and I really believe most people straddle 2 or 3 stages at any given time depending on various factors and context. This isn’t something that can be studied. It has to be “lived into” (Dan Wotherspoon quote).
Feel free to hang out here and kick ideas around, and get feedback.
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