I don’t want to be a member of the church.

[Anonymous]

Welcome RocketMonkey!

InquiringMind wrote:

RocketMonkey34 wrote:

I don’t like it. I never have. I know I’ve never loved it, I’m not social, I don’t like basketball, I’ve never really had a friend in the church that I was at all close to.

LDS culture seems to favor guys who are good at business, socializing, basketball, and skiing. I’m an introverted thinker and a problem-solver. So being a scientist/problem-solver/creative intellectual in a religious culture that values socialites/businessmen/entertainers has been very hard.

There are some things about the Church that I like and some I don’t. I like the “clean living” values, among other things. I don’t like the culture very much, especially when it seems to lean towards being very politically conservative and somewhat anti-intellectual and anti-science. And I don’t like the fact that my talents are not the talents that an ideal cultural Mormon ought to have.

I can relate. I am also an introverted thinker and have never enjoyed many of the social details of church. I don’t play basketball or even softball, I don’t sing in the choir, I don’t like to teach lessons or speak in church. On the other hand all of my good friends have always been in the church, not always in my ward but church members.

I often say I have always liked church, but I have also always disliked many of the cultural elements. I do and always have enjoyed the community factor. I enjoy the Christmas dinners, the coming together when people are in need, the wedding receptions and funerals. Maybe you could say “the church is always true when there’s food involved” and I have been fed enough to be happy. I also do enjoy the “clean” lifestyle, and would generally feel uncomfortable if I had to jump completely into many other average American groups today and adopt the “lifestyle.”

So I guess when I say “I have always enjoyed church” I to some degree am making a choice to focus on what I do like and ignore or downplay what I don’t. I can assure you I am no more satisfied with the average church meeting than the average distracted body in the pew, but I hold onto a hope that I may hear one thing on any Sunday that I may say I can agree with. And if I get even one statement, I consider that a success.

Thanks for the thoughts RocketMonkey, we always enjoy a discussion. What else is on your mind?

[Anonymous]

Brian Johnston wrote:

Fowler stage 5 …isn’t something that can be studied. It has to be “lived into” (Dan Wotherspoon quote).

For clarity obviously people spend a lot of time studying Fowler (and I know that’s not what you meant). In my experience just being aware of his stage theory has helped tremendously in seeking new possibilities. I have opined on this Wotherspoon quote in the past. I am a fan of Dan, I think he’s genius, and this statement obviously came from his own experience. His extended statement that it probably takes at least 10 years or so to live and grow through stage 4 into stage 5 obviously has merit; but from my personal experience studying and even aspiring to more of a stage 5 point of view has been effective in calming the most extreme waves of a faith crisis while trying to remain active at church.

To summarize, while I will agree that it does take time and experience to truly move through stages, the awareness and study of additional stages does give points to ponder. Understanding the what, why, and how of different perspectives or approaches can shine a bright light on one’s own point of view.

[Anonymous]

Good points, Orson. I also think it is helpful when you find a support group that makes you feel you’re not the only one feeling these things, or experiencing these things.

We’re all trying to figure it out as we go along also, and share ideas to help each other, even if specifics in our journey are unique to each of us.

I’m not sure what stage I’m in, actually. I’m just OK knowing I’m on a path, and it is OK to be me, and it is OK to hurt and be disappointed and have unanswered questions and be imperfect, while at the same time recognizing I’m learning things that help me be happy at times. I’ve grown from who I was yesterday.

Bottom line, I’m trying to find what I need to do to be a better person, be healthy internally (emotionally, mentally, spiritually)…so I can be a good father and husband, and then be a good member of society. So far, that has allowed me to stay in the Church. But I also respect people who are good and healthy internally, good parents, and good members of society outside the church. The Church is the appendage to what we want to become. We can’t try to become what the church tells us to become. That would leave us hollow, always searching for our souls. We are members of the orchestra, and should be the best we can become…not wish we were in different stages to become what others are or say we should become. If that makes sense. End ramble.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

His extended statement that it probably takes at least 10 years or so to live and grow through stage 4 into stage 5 obviously has merit…

This is frustrating. It makes it hard to plan for my life. I don’t know where my faith crisis will lead and I can’t imagine dealing with this king of struggle for ten years. And it makes dating pointless. I don’t even bother trying to meet girls anymore. I just walk by them because I don’t even know the answer to the question “Are you LDS?” I don’t have ten years to put off getting married while I figure out what I believe, but it doesn’t make any sense to even try to look for someone when I don’t know what my future in the Church is.

[Anonymous]

InquiringMind wrote:

This is frustrating. It makes it hard to plan for my life. I don’t know where my faith crisis will lead …

We never really know for sure where life will lead us in general, let alone in religion. I just make the best plans I can. Gotta roll with the punches and improvise as life throws you curve balls. I prefer not to categorize a person as exclusively one stage or another. It’s more useful to examine how a person is thinking in any given moment, and use the language to describe it — thinking about how we think (an activity that begins in stage 4). Sometimes I am more in Stage 4 mode. Sometimes I am thinking more in Stage 5 ways. It changes all the time based on my context, who I am interacting with, and many other factors.

With Fowler stage theory, I think it’s important to remember 3 big points:

1. It’s just a “theory,” a way to simplify and categorize a very complex continuum of human experience for academic purposes. It provides a language for talking about the process of faith and mental development on the broad, macro level. It isn’t as useful for cramming individual people into neat little discrete packages.

2. You have to separate faith content from the mechanics of how someone processes that content. Fowler stage theory is about the mechanics, not the content. Passing through stages of faith has very little to do with what we believe, only how we believe it. It isn’t only about believing in the doctrines of the LDS church or doubting them. There are plenty of “Stage 4” and “Stage 5” Mormons who pass through without leaving active participation in the church. There are also plenty who go inactive or leave who never move past Stage 3.

For example, It seems to me like some folks who leave the LDS Church for Evangelical Protestantism are often just swapping faith content. They don’t appear to have changed their way of processing religion. They become fundamentalists in a different religion instead of stepping outside the flow of that content and starting the process of examining their new faith content critically.

3. When Dan Wotherspoon talks about it taking 10 years, he isn’t thinking of only the “crisis” period. Crisis happens for different reasons, but it can be a major trigger the begins the process of pushing someone out of a stage of perspective. People don’t generally go through 10 years of crisis. I would say most people pass through that in a year or two.

When thinking back over my life, I think I started into a Stage 4-ish perspective in my late teens. That’s pretty normal. I didn’t really have a “crisis” over my faith until 30 years later. My “crisis” was caused by people very close to me in my life going through their own very intense LDS faith meltdowns. It was more a crisis of relationship than of thought. When I was forced to dig in DEEP to all the controversy and history, I actually found Mormonism MORE interesting. I feel much more comfortable with Mormonism now that I feel like things finally make sense, and I know exactly why a lot of things bothered me so much before. I am far more comfortable with a messy and challenging religion than a view that pretends every point literally has to connect and has perfect coherence across time.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Bottom line, I’m trying to find what I need to do to be a better person, be healthy internally (emotionally, mentally, spiritually)…so I can be a good father and husband, and then be a good member of society. So far, that has allowed me to stay in the Church. But I also respect people who are good and healthy internally, good parents, and good members of society outside the church. The Church is the appendage to what we want to become. We can’t try to become what the church tells us to become. That would leave us hollow, always searching for our souls. We are members of the orchestra, and should be the best we can become…not wish we were in different stages to become what others are or say we should become.

Yes of course, with the clarification that it’s the empty striving to fulfill someone else’s ideal that we don’t fully “get” that will leave us hollow. We can’t just live to please others, we must live for our own growth and fulfillment. In my mind the church gives many different and good ideas about what to become.

That being said I know my own life is rewarded because of my efforts to remain in the orchestra. If I just complained “I’m clashing with the horn section and the strings can’t get anything right” and I bailed, thinking it is just not worth the effort, then I would never have the opportunity to harmonize in important ways with many people that I care deeply about.

[Anonymous]

InquiringMind wrote:

This is frustrating. It makes it hard to plan for my life. I don’t know where my faith crisis will lead and I can’t imagine dealing with this king of struggle for ten years. And it makes dating pointless. I don’t even bother trying to meet girls anymore. I just walk by them because I don’t even know the answer to the question “Are you LDS?” I don’t have ten years to put off getting married while I figure out what I believe, but it doesn’t make any sense to even try to look for someone when I don’t know what my future in the Church is.

This is refreshingly open and honest.

But it sounds to me like you want to be the finished product, so then you can start living life and meeting people and having relationships.

But reality is, we are often in the “middle”, as Pres Uchtdorf puts it, and we need to enjoy the now…while trying to plan for the future and figure out what we want to be.

You should find a way to be comfortable with your answers. “Are you LDS? I don’t know.” If that eliminates some potential dates, perhaps that is part of the dating process as you are comfortable with who you are, and others like you and accept you for who you are in order to have meaningful relationships. Perhaps learning ways on answering can help you, because if you are definite now, what if you change your mind later. Responding in ways that keep the door open as you journey may be wise. Something like:

Quote:

Conversion is a daily process, I’m like a rough stone rolling…still working on things and learning as I roll.

I know you know this…it is the doing part of it that is hard because it doesn’t end up being as nice and neat and clean as a commercial paints the picture it should go.

I don’t know, just my perspective…I wouldn’t want a friend of mine to feel they have to wait 10 years to live their life.

[Anonymous]

InquiringMind wrote:

This is frustrating. It makes it hard to plan for my life. I don’t know where my faith crisis will lead and I can’t imagine dealing with this king of struggle for ten years. I don’t have ten years to put off getting married while I figure out what I believe, but it doesn’t make any sense to even try to look for someone when I don’t know what my future in the Church is.

I say define your personal Mormonism for today, and realize that everything shifts with time. Then become comfortable and confident with yourself and go live your life! :thumbup: Go! Do!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the advice. I suppose that I am where I am and the ladies I interact with will have to accept that. I’m inclined to believe that if I found a TBM girl I really liked, I might be able to give literal belief another try, but I just don’t think that will work. I’d just have a crisis later on, and then I’d be having a crisis with a TBM spouse and in-laws, which would make things way more complicated.

Brian, I know that Fowler’s Stages is a model of reality, and that models have limitations, especially when we are trying to model people, because people are fantastically complex. So when the model works, I use it, and when it breaks down, I make accommodations.

Oh, and I like the term “faith meltdown.” These days we have economic meltdowns, faith meltdowns, etc. 🙂

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