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So after some 35 years of praying, studying and straining to get any kind of spiritual insight I have finally got an answer to the nature of the church and God. The issue is it has little to do with Mormonism other that that is my life history so it steers and controls my life to some degree. I could give volumes of what has brought me to this point but suffice it to say it has been a long journey. Basically it has been confirmed as much as anything can be confirmed that religions in general are constructs of man and serve to do some good and some bad. To say any one individual or organization has the remotest claim to an exclusive divine mandate is in error. God if he does exist or cares does not interfere nearly to the degree that individuals would like to think. Personally I believe he exists and cares but not in a Mormon sense. This has come to me by a series of events and study that make it obvious at least to me this is the case. There is no other option for me personally. Does this mean I leave the church? I think not at this point. they are still my tribe, the place I raised my children and I am so tied to it culturally I get a great amount of benefit from it still as does my family. This does not mean I believe much of anything of the foundational story and think most of it was made up, or exaggerated. Maybe not intentionally but made up still the same. But that does not make the current church all bad so I think I will hang around for awhile if they will let me.
The real question as my feelings continue to become known to others will they be willing to accept the fact that I employed the very process that Mormons claim you should use to find the truth, study and prayer and I got an answer very contrary to theirs. Can the average member swallow that without thinking the devil has me in his grip. We shall see.
I am curious about the nature of your answer or conclusion. Well, a bit more than curious, actually. Was is a particular event or an accumulation of events? Or something entirely different? I see myself heading in the same direction, or maybe already there, but not so certain of myself as you seem to be. Sometimes I think a little more certainty would be nice. I suppose I worry that I base my current position too much on my intellect and personality.
FWIW, I get what you are saying Cadence. And I still embrace you as a brother, and a fellow spiritual adventurer. Cadence wrote:The real question as my feelings continue to become known to others will they be willing to accept the fact that I employed the very process that Mormons claim you should use to find the truth, study and prayer and I got an answer very contrary to theirs. Can the average member swallow that without thinking the devil has me in his grip. We shall see.
No. It will not be accepted. The “average member” can not handle that concept, that their own true methods lead to other answers. You may hold hope somehow that others will validate your path, but that really should not be a factor in your peace of mind. Only those who are initiated into this wisdom through their own trials of the soul, their own dark night, can appreciate it. We carry our heavy burdens and struggles as long as we need to feel attached to them. When we are ready to let go … “His yoke is easy, and His burden is light” (spoken and quoted allegorically).
Now where do you go? There’s a whole wide world out there, an unlimited playground for the soul. Breaking the chains of attachment is the gateway, and narrow was the path that lead to this place. Once we are no longer bound to finding some mythological, ultimate “Truth,” we are free to move wherever “The Spirit” guides us.
The downside? There’s nobody left to point to, to blame for our experiences, not even God. You can’t blame the “Serpent” either for beguiling you.
DISCLAIMER: I do not claim this is a true, or the right answer. I don’t want to interfere with anyone else’s peace of mind, or their own journey.
Cadence wrote:Can the average member swallow that without thinking the devil has me in his grip. We shall see.
I guess it depends on how they find out. If you bear testimony to what you’ve learned In fast meeting or make a few comments to that effect in gospel doctrine you’re likely to get a few sideways glances. What’s more likely to happen is that people will take note of the fact that you show up when help is needed and that you do what you say you’ll do. What you believe or don’t won’t matter all that much.
Great point GBsmith. Nobody really cares as long as we don’t disturb their reality. They really don’t give a flip. Seriously. It really boils down to that basic a concept. People don’t want to be disturbed, generally. That’s about the long and short of it. Like you said, as long as someone is there being a positive and productive part of any group, everyone goes right along living out whatever fantasy they are creating in their minds about OUR faith and beliefs.
doug wrote:I am curious about the nature of your answer or conclusion. Well, a bit more than curious, actually. Was is a particular event or an accumulation of events? Or something entirely different?
I see myself heading in the same direction, or maybe already there, but not so certain of myself as you seem to be. Sometimes I think a little more certainty would be nice. I suppose I worry that I base my current position too much on my intellect and personality.
A long painful process of elimination. When you are forced over time to eliminate every possible scenario for our existence you are left with the only remaining conclusion, that is as I said religions are made up by men for men. For me recently it became abundantly clear the answer to the question was right in front of me the whole time and of course it was the simplest answer. The problem for most I believe is they take the notion that their religion is true and then go on a journey to find the evidence or experience to support that conclusion. Only if you throw every cherished belief out the window and be willing to accept the answer you find through diligent study and contemplation can you find the correct answer for you, which I am most willing to accept may be different than mine. There is noting wrong with basing your conclusion on intellect. It is at minimum as reliable as an emotional feeling, But I believe it is actually more reliable. Besides who is to say that is not how God works for the truly enlightened.
Individuals like me or like most of us here I suspect will never have that fantastic spiritual experience telling us the church is true beyond any doubt. Mainly because it is not, but more because we have inquiring minds that need rational explanations. This is not conducive to a believing testimony.
I will say that it is not a journey for the faint. If you want to stay a believing Mormon stop now. Do not look into the facts around the foundational story. Do not spend your time questioning. Most likely you will let the genie out of the bottle and there is no turning back. You will at minimum never be total on board with all aspects of the church in the future.
I walked this path recently to. Starting in about April, I FINALLY started to admit to myself that rather than accept the church was true and try to find evidence, that perhaps it was a man-made organization. Everything started coming clear to me after that. I was still on the fence until I sat through 9 hours of general conference. I feel off the fence – on the wrong side. Now I am just looking for excuses to remain in the church. I think there is a lot of good and a lot of “truth” to be had. I do believe that the church is a valid pathway to enlightenment (it worked for me), one of many IMO. I really doubt the church membership will accept my answer however. My “answer” is a threat and challenge to their faith I think. I try to keep my head down, but, well, you’ve read my stories.
I do think the others are right, they don’t want their faith to be challenged and they want to remain comfortable. The problem I have is that even though I respect others rights to believe what they want, I’m not going to follow all the LDS commandments that don’t make sense to me, so it’s just a matter of time until my actions betray my real feelings. This process is well underway.
Cadence, I think this is super exciting, and I hope to say more and read more about and on this thread as I get time. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian Johnston wrote:Great point GBsmith. Nobody really cares as long as we don’t disturb their reality. They really don’t give a flip. Seriously. It really boils down to that basic a concept. People don’t want to be disturbed, generally. That’s about the long and short of it.
I think it’s that people in general don’t like to be proselyted and that includes someone trying to point out by word, inference or insinusation that what you believe is wrong. I lived next door to a lutheran pastor for about 20 years and he never once told me I was going to hell because I was a member of a satanically inspired polytheistic pornographic pagan cult. We were neighbors and left it at that. I don’t think TBMs are living in a self created fantasy. Some like my wife are true believers in the best sense of the word and I’d never challenge the veracity of her faith.
cwald wrote:I do think the others are right, they don’t want their faith to be challenged and they want to remain comfortable.
Who would? My point earlier is that people in general are more concerned if you’re a stand up person. If you have enough sense to not try and point out that someone is deluded because of their faith, then everyone will get along fine. I think the trouble starts when someone who’s lost their faith feels obligated to bear testimony to that fact and to bring others to the light.
I have to say again that I love this board. Where else would an affirmation of lackof faith be greeted as a genuinecause for celebration? Cadence, I am happy for you, and a bit jealous. I was talking to my wife about this the other day. She’s very understanding and supportive about my issues with religion. She asked if I had prayed about whether on not I should leave the church (in so many words) and I had to answer that, frankly, I hadn’t, because from a practical standpoint, I don’t know that I want to know the answer.
For some time I have been trying to organize my thoughts and feelings, my objections and reasons for belief, intellect and faith, etc, in some logical fashion so that I could examine it whenever the need arises and _know_ what to do and how to proceed. But lately it seems I’ve stopped trying. I think it’s because I have little faith anymore in my own ability to distinguish truth, either intellectually or spiritually. I have had to settle with reading good books when I can find the time, and taking away whatever feels right. I’m really not sure what else to do at this point.
doug wrote:from a practical standpoint, I don’t know that I want to know the answer.
This really struck me. Personally for myself, I try to turn this around to make it a positive.
I have a testimony of the questions, not so much the answers. I don’t mean to declare any particular answers wrong by that. I enjoy answers too. But it really seems to me like the questioning, the wondering, the struggling, those are what enlarge my soul — not being certain about the answers. Being certain, that makes me feel stagnant.
It’s just how I am.
What GB said. Will it be accepted? In a nutshell, that depends largely on you.
Of course, there are MAJOR differences in congregations (like cwald’s and mine, for example), but, as a general rule,
“We love him, because he first loved us.”It’s hard for most people to reject someone if they feel that someone truly loves them – and is willing to help them in whatever way possible without being a butthead about differences. Quote:Where else would an affirmation of lack of faith be greeted as a genuine cause for celebration?
At the risk of not saying this correctly, and playing my natural role of resident parser, I don’t think a lack of faith is a cause for celebration. I think it’s really sad when someone loses faith. Period. Full stop.
I would say a re-examination and re-structuring of faith is a cause for celebration -but only if it leads toward a personalization of faith.
After all, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, life without faith is misery.
I will copy this and start a new post about it.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Where else would an affirmation of lack of faith be greeted as a genuine cause for celebration?
At the risk of not saying this correctly, and playing my natural role of resident parser, I don’t think a lack of faith is a cause for celebration. I think it’s really sad when someone loses faith. Period. Full stop.
I would say a re-examination and re-structuring of faith is a cause for celebration -but only if it leads toward a personalization of faith.
After all, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, life without faith is misery.
I will copy this and start a new post about it.
Not to make too much of this, but I didn’t mean to say that I or anyone else here would applaud a descent into nihilism, or anything of that kind, though I suppose even that works for some people. I see Cadence’s comments as an indication that he’s moving forward (who knows where?) but with the understanding that he had to discard something that wasn’t working for him (faith may have been the wrong word, but I don’t think it’s that far off) along the way. In a way it’s melancholy. In a way it’s a cause for celebration.
To clarify I have no interest in being a on a crusade to get everyone to come around to my way of thinking. I just say I found the answer that seems the most obvious and practical for me. Sure I believe it is correct but long experience tells me that others will not see it the same way. They are all entitled to their own view of reality. So I will keep my head down and not make a big deal about it. The one thing I will can not do is concede that my experience is invalid and theirs is correct. If I applied the same tools to get answers then the conclusion must be valid also.
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