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Hey everybody, For the last 11 years (31 male now) I’ve had an off and on faith crisis. The whole time I’ve always stay in the church. I was never perfect but I’ve always repented and stay faithful to the church. I’ll just layout everything in hopes somebody can make sense of my problem. Eck, venerability bomb incoming:
I’ve always been aware of controversial issues in the church but recently I decided to take a very “objective” view for a lack of a better word. I’ve read a lot of articles, listen to many podcasts, and did a lot of study from first hand resources. I would listen to both sides of the argument and give them same amount of time. After much studying I’ve decided Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham isn’t historical true. Not sure about the spiritual truths.
I’ve concluded the church is mostly good and really does help people for the better. I’m not at all bitter from my church experience even if I had some really hard times with abusive emotional manipulation from church authority figures. Specifically me not going on a mission. Besides that, church makes sense to me if somebody really wants to improve their life. My problem is that it’s unsustainable for a non believer. The church asks a lot of their members. That’s fine for someone who believes but for me it’s just not sustainable if I don’t believe.
Spiritually things kind of been everywhere. I don’t even trust my spiritual conformations because how unreliable feelings are based on conformational bias and other psychological tricks we put on ourselves according psychological research I’ve found. Having that said, I’ve ask a million times in hopes to get an definitive answer the church is true but never got any spiritual conformation. Probably the biggest spiritual conformation I’ve ever in my life was that I will never know the church is true (peaceful feeling, enlightenment feeling). The weird thing is even if I’m convinced that spiritual conformation is impossible due to how our brains works, I’ve always felt good when I prayed but everything goes away when I start asking about church truth claims.
I guess I’ll put this out here too. I never been to the temple besides baptisms for the dead. I don’t have my endowments. The temple gives me a lot of anxiety because of my faith crisis.
Luckily I’m not married so I’m not dragging anybody with me. I’m scared to death of dating outside of the church because a lot of my values are still reflective to church values. Ideally I would still love to marry an LDS girl but I know my unbelief and my lack of commitment to church wouldn’t make it impossible.
I know this isn’t a deciding factor, but my whole family and majority of my extended family is TBM. I know they will love me still but I feel like I will get a ton of pressure and become everybodys project. I’ve told my dad about my faith crisis (I make it more of a concern rather than a full out thinking about leaving) and every time we talk I feel like I’m his project and he just wants to fix me rather not understand me.
I’m really have a hard time seeing myself staying in church unless some miracle happens. I think more than anything I want this to happen and become a believer but I getting to the point where I’m deciding if it’s time to jet. I guess I want to cover my basis before I leave. I’m really scared out of my wits to leave because it’s all I’ve ever known, but I shouldn’t stay because I’m afraid. That’s how badly I want this to happen. Any comments will be appreciated.
Thanks for taking time to share your story and thoughts. What would you say are the the reasons you have stayed going to church all these years? Has anything changed for you about it?
I’m just curious why you think it is not sustainable if you have been doing it for years.
Welcome to the forum. You are in a safe place. I can relate to much of what you have said, especially about the spirit and the mind – I don’t trust my feelings, either. I usually say take it slow, don’t dump all at once, and focus on what you do believe. It seems you have been doing the first and probably the second. I like Heber’s questions for you. I didn’t go to church for many years, and will say for me that wasn’t the answer and didn’t work. As many current and former participants here will attest, there are ways to stay but it takes effort and sometimes some tongue biting. I hope you find the peace you seek. I don’t have time for a long comment, but I do want to welcome you to this forum. People here understand.
Interesting introduction!! I really felt it when you mentioned the unsustainability of full activity for people who don’t believe. I have a few suggestions to consider. First, can you rely on your own human weakness to help you stay for the long term in some capacity? This sounds odd, but I look at my incredibly long list of mistakes, poor judgment, and woefully inadequate understanding of those factors that exist after this life is over. None of us can see what is in store for us after this life (in my view) and few are given the privilege through visions or divine help to know for a surety what the eternal future holds so you can make plans. And those who claim such experiences cannot verify their experience to us. This uncertainty will exist in any religion.
As a result, I choose NOT to say “I don’t believe”. I choose to accept indecision as my guide and the possibility there is more truth than appears to exist on the surface. This means that I can stay in it as insurance for the future. I can keep an open mind. I may not be able to sustain full-on TBM habits in the religion, but I’m still connected and open to doing an about-face as necessary. There are still good relationships in the church — in your case, with your family as well. So why not stick with this one (at some level of commitment) given your family heritage, the importance of relationships with our blood relatives etcetera?
In some ways, it’s easier, and more difficult (at the same time) since you are not married. Easier in that you don’t have TBM expectations in the most important family relationship at all — your marriage — and could risk losing the marriage if you had it right now. Harder in that you will find it interesting to get married. On this count, have you considered tapping into the majority of members who do not conform to TBM behavior? I am not talking about chastity or the hard-core lifestyle commandments, but people who have the same ideals you do, but may also have faith issues? It seems to me that crowd is growing. The problem is that they aren’t in any one place you can meet them as many may not attend church. But they are out there.
Also, as many know, I am now deeply involved in the community with church as a mere addendum for service in my life. Join the right service organization, and you will likely run into a lot of people with good values there as well.
Aa far as the family goes. Tough one. There are a couple approaches. One is the full-on broadcast of where you are with the church. That, in my view, has the biggest potential to draw projectitis toward you as member who is not fully faithful. I like the approach of keeping it quiet, and dealing with the issues as they come up. The grapevine will be your broadcast no matter what you do.
Using the quite, grapevine approach, some of your family will not know how to approach you about it, and will not do anything about it Others will reach out to you, in which case you can indicate you appreciate it, and are working with your father and others on it. Minimize the impact on you.
Perhaps not a fix-all solution, but a few thoughts to share.
Welcome nonetheless, you won’t find your average responses here on this site
Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false. Sustaining going to church if you believe absolutely none of it seems like that would be impossible. But there is a buffet. Some of it is good. Some not to your taste, even if others die for it.
I think individuals can find the right balance of the things they do treasure about the church that outweighs the stuff that seems like others’ opinions. This is the journey. Defining one’s own faith while mingling with others. My testimony is it is worth it to find that balance and stay…because…where else would I go? I deeply believe the values taught to my family are wonderful in the church, as long as I don’t take things too far and miss the mark.
Heber13 wrote:Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false.
Even though this directly contradicts church teachings? If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization? (Maybe a topic for a different thread.)
OP:
Which church values do you have that you think other people won’t share that could impact dating? There are a lot of great people that aren’t LDS. I imagine the only thing you’ll have to reconcile is the LDS vs. non-LDS view on sexuality. Unless you can be 100% TBM I would advise against dating an LDS girl unless you can be open about your doubts and this person accepts and respects your point of view. At some point one or both of you will likely have to choose between each other and the Church.
Paulista wrote:Heber13 wrote:Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false.
Even though this directly contradicts church teachings? If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization? (Maybe a topic for a different thread.)
It might be a different thread but it’s on topic here. With the caveat that I’m not actually sure what “true” means, I’m pretty sure most of us here don’t believe it’s all true, but I will only speak for myself. There are lots of it I don’t believe are true, including the aforementioned BoM and BoA. We are getting clear messages from Pres. Uchtdorf and others in the Q15 that it is not necessary to believe it all (“your testimony doesn’t have to be this tall to enter” etc.) in order to be active participants in church. I also don’t believe all prayers are heard and answered. I do hold a temple recommend, and I don’t recall either my bishop or SP asking if I believe the BoM to be true or if I believe in prayer or if I pray at all. It is a fallacy to believe the church is an all or nothing proposition. I do believe the BoM to be a good book that is capable of bringing people closer to God and Christ through its teachings.So what is the benefit of staying LDS? There are lots of benefits. As Heber (and Christ’s Apostles) said, where else would I go? I’ve looked at other churches and find good in them as well. But I’m a Mormon, my closest friends are Mormon, my family is Mormon. Other than three hours being way too long, I like the way we do things – it’s what I know and what I’m comfortable with. Pres Uchtdorf is right:
Quote:If you expect to find perfect people here, you will be disappointed. But if you seek the pure doctrine of Christ, the word of God “which healeth the wounded soul,” and the sanctifying influence of the Holy Ghost, then here you will find them. In this age of waning faith—in this age when so many feel distanced from heaven’s embrace—here you will find a people who yearn to know and draw closer to their Savior by serving God and fellowmen, just like you. Come, join with us!
Paulista wrote:Which church values do you have that you think other people won’t share that could impact dating? There are a lot of great people that aren’t LDS. I imagine the only thing you’ll have to reconcile is the LDS vs. non-LDS view on sexuality. Unless you can be 100% TBM I would advise against dating an LDS girl unless you can be open about your doubts and this person accepts and respects your point of view. At some point one or both of you will likely have to choose between each other and the Church.
I have to differ with you on this one. Mczee, you are not alone, and you are far less alone than you think. Just as you keep to yourself about your doubts, others in your own ward and stake are doing exactly the same thing. They may have different questions and uncertainties, but they are indeed there. The trick is finding them, and I am not a master of doing so. The only way you’re going to find out is to interact with them. That doesn’t mean wearing a sign that identifies yourself as a doubter, it does mean getting to know people – the perfect Mormons you think you know are in reality not perfect and are only trying to make others believe they are (not maliciously). It takes time and effort, and if you believe in prayer, then do so, but they (we) are out there. I have nothing against dating outside the church, either, but don’t convince yourself or let someone else convince you that all other members are believe everything – it just is not so.
Mczee you mentioned you have not been to the temple and you have anxiety about the temple. I assert this anxiety is actually guilt imposed by others. Review the temple recommend questions without reading anything into them. They are carefully written with exact wording. There are reasons for that, and they are not intended to be added to or redefined. You might be surprised what they really ask – and don’t ask.
Mczee – I am going to address the dating marriage thing. In our family, a once very devout TBM family, we are now a divided lot and the staunchest member is a single 26 year old daughter who is having to make her way in the world with what the church considers a broken family. Her dad can’t nor will attend the temple. He attends nothing, short of resignation he calls himself post-Mo. It’s been devastating for her to lose his LDS hero status. I am a fence sitter, which sort of helps but doesn’t. Her siblings have embraced the inactive life. They don’t party or anything, just don’t attend, nor find interest in it. She isn’t endowed at present, but wants to, or feels the need to – since we are all nearly apostates. At the same time she knows the issues, she has a few she struggles with, but she loves the church – and over the course of our transitioning from church she has found a haven in it.
My reason for explaining this is you may be surprised what is out in the dating field, especially after the last decade, there may be a lot more nuanced people than you know. Clean living, productive people – even YA’s who like my daughter are worried who to bring into the family. Should she go TBM and possibly be disconnected from us forever, should she look non-member but religiously supportive. She is just as confused as you are.
Don’t give up on finding a someone to connect with, it may be a bit trickier, but maybe not.
Just to provide an example of people not always thinking or believing as we assume they do: I spoke with someone after Elder Oaks’ talk where he said that endowed women have the same general Priesthood power and authority as ordained men, but they haven’t been authorized to perform ordinances outside the temple (April 2014 General Conference Priestood Session). I was a bit concerned about how this man would react, since he was in his 80’s, has been a Stake President and Temple President and Patriarch, and appears to be stereotypically conservative and orthodox.
He said, essentially,
Quote:“I was excited to hear that talk. I have thought that for a long time, and I wonder how long it will be until women are authorized to perform ordinances outside the temple. I am glad this generation of apostles is beginning to see it this way.”
You aren’t as alone in this as you assume. God bless you as you figure out these things for yourself and work to find a balance that works for you.
First before I get started, you guys are all amazing. I’m really blown away with your responses. It means a ton that everybody took the time to understand me. I’m just awe struck. Also, I wrote this dilemma about a week ago and try to post it on another LDS forum but moderators never approve of it. I was emotionally wreck and probably wasn’t clear in a lot of things. I had a nice inspiration (revaluation?) that my faith crisis is seperate from my identity. There is more to life than this situation I’m in and everything will be ok. This happens a lot. I often go into freak out mode then there are a lot of times I’m at peace with everything. So with that in mind, I still posted here.
Right now I feel mostly ok but we had a really bad combine relief society and elders quorum activity showing the “breaking the cycle” video that Bednar did. I’m looking for it right now, but it’s basically Bednar saying the reason why people leave the church is parents aren’t teaching about gospel principles as much as they should be. I almost spoke up on how stupid it is to judge your self worth over if your kids leave the church or not the problem is not that simple that Bednar is putting it. I felt horribly because one of the councilors branch presidency had his own kids leave the church and he talk about his regrets not teaching them enough! That’s horrible and too much of a thing to put on yourself. It drove me up the wall but I decided to let things sit and talk to my branch presidency later when my emotions go away. This narrative isn’t what TBM need to hear.
Quote:What would you say are the the reasons you have stayed going to church all these years? Has anything changed for you about it?
I guess I should clarify the 10 year period. Like I said, I was in a emotional wreck and haven’t explain myself well. I think for the most of it, I just put things on the shelf and I did believe. I had my big doubts for sure. I went through ups and downs but I mostly believe the church was great and mostly true. With these doubts, I never really committed myself to the church in the way that they want me to (ie endowments, mission, and just being casual about non saving ordinances)
Things started to hit really hard last year. The biggest trigger was being dump from my girlfriend last year. Even if it wasn’t church related, I just freak out and started to ask if it’s all worth it. Ya, I know it’s weird and irrational but it just happen. I think the reason why my testimony and being dump is correlated is the fear of being alone. I was 30 and I was about to be kick out YSA (luckily I’m still here, I was told I was going to be kick out of after my endowments ha!) Then I had the Revelation that “I will never know”. Then I recovered a little bit but the big trigger that led me to this point was studying psychology and how artificial spiritual experiences can be. That’s why it’s change.
Alright to answer your question why I stay is because over the last 10 years is because family pressures, having a shelf sustaining my doubts, social life was great, I do enjoy a lot of church, and I agree with 90% of church principles.
Quote:I’m just curious why you think it is not sustainable if you have been doing it for years.
I think the reason why I don’t feel like it’s sustainable is because of marriage. Obviously marrying in the church with my level of commitment and beliefs is a HUGE problem with most TBM sisters. I don’t want to my children to feel the pressure to go on Missions. I don’t want them to feel like they are being force into seminary (I hated seminary). Boyscouts is a choice, not a reflection of your spiritual growth. I have no problem being married to a TBM spouse. In fact, I prefer it because of the values, shared experiences and expectations. Heck, I’ll be willing to get my endowments and marry in the temple. Marriage ceremonies isn’t a big deal for me. but as most of you can see it’s already a problem. Most TBM spouses wouldn’t compromise anything above. It’s all or nothing. There is no room for freedom in the this church to be a member who isn’t ready for those commitments.
Leaving the church is just hard because just how big of impact will have on my family. Yes, I know, It’s my life but it doesn’t make it easier. Just finding a spouse with same value set will be VERY hard. In fact, from my experiences, dating outside of the church is 100 times hardier than inside. I can’t tell how online dating is way easier on a lds website and a non lds dating website. That’s probably because lds women out number lds men buy a ton. The good news is that there is just endless amount of non lds women out there. It’s not impossible but it will be MUCH hardier getting dates. Marrying someone who isn’t LDS and is ok with me associated with LDS church will be rough too.
Quote:I can relate to much of what you have said, especially about the spirit and the mind – I don’t trust my feelings, either. I usually say take it slow, don’t dump all at once, and focus on what you do believe.
Thank you for the advice. I’ve learn slowly that I just need to let things sit. I often think I need to figure things out ASAP but that’s not true. It’s really unhealthy for me to think that way. It’s also funny how often I focus on my confusion rather focus on things that are clear to me.
Quote:First, can you rely on your own human weakness to help you stay for the long term in some capacity?
I’ll need to think about this. Thank you. That was a insightful question.
Quote:Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false. Sustaining going to church if you believe absolutely none of it seems like that would be impossible.
Eck, Thank you for this. I keep reminding myself this. I think it’s been stuck in my brain because of Hinkley’s quote on “true or fraud” and that isn’t healthy way to approach any ideal.
Quote:Which church values do you have that you think other people won’t share that could impact dating?
Drinking is probably the biggest one. I have a hard to accepting that it’s ok even on a casual level. I don’t know if it’s a deal breaker at this point because I feel like I’m being to harsh on people. I just see no value in it what so ever.
Sex is another one, but being a 31 year old virgin I’m about to go insane not having it. I can’ tell how how much of this occupies my head and often i have to fight against it. So knowing me, I’ll just give in. I’m sure I won’t give in at a certain point (ie dropping the L word first or getting close to engagement). I would never take sex casually.
Quote:Don’t give up on finding a someone to connect with, it may be a bit trickier, but maybe not.
That was amazing. Thank you so much. I might need to print this out to remind myself just put myself out there. Keep trying. LDS and Non-LDS. There is somebody who is ok with me (and the other way around).
Again, you’re all amazing. I’m still blown away by the support. This has help a ton. I’ll keep everybody posted in my journey. Thank you. I look forward to more responses and hopefully I can bring some value to this community.
I value temple marriage with someone you love and who loves you – highly. However, I am not a fan at all of lifelong celibacy. At this point, I would suggest expanding your options and considering dating non-Mormons who share your basic standards. There are a lot of them – and you aren’t seen as abnormally old in those circles. I understand the “risk” from a traditional perspective, but there are many thousands of members who are married to non-members and remain active in the LDS Church. I am not saying you should do that, but I think you might want to think about it.
Old-Timer wrote:At this point, I would suggest expanding your options and considering dating non-Mormons who share your basic standards. There are a lot of them – and you aren’t seen as abnormally old in those circles.
I agree — I have learned there are a LOT of good people out there. Lots of them. We get a bit insulated from them in our sometimes inward-looking religion, but there really are a lot of good people who are not Mormons, and who may never become Mormons either.
McZee, I don’t have time to write as long of a response as I would like, but I am glad you found this site. There are some fantastic and accepting folks here that are just trying to figure this all out and be good people. At the same time, most all are NOT typical or TBM. But unlike some boards, it seems the balance on this site is, “If it works for a TMB and it isn’t injuring someone else – good for them.”
I can’t tell if the one thing you are struggling with is the core issue that it comes down for me. I am several years past my faith CRISIS and certainly see myself still on my faith transition. After digging into all the history, and really feeling lied to, getting past that feeling a bit and seeing things a bit different – I still keep coming to one main thing. As I have studied past leaders and teachings – and the change in teachings – I still have a real hard time reconciling the pedestal that leaders put themselves (as a class) on. So when I read about Joseph Smith approaching women and basically saying, “marry me or I will disparage you in public” I have gotten to a point that I can see the imperfect man and can (in a way) forgive him for that and maybe God did deliver many truths through him (but it does make me wonder why God would be so “tricky” to have us follow those that have a bit of a scoundrel streak instead of a Mother Theresa type). I can see that Brigham Young did many great things and a LOT of things that make me say, “REALLY???” But maybe the church needed that to survive the move to Utah. But when I hear things like Elder Ballard say in conference, “We will not, we can not lead you astray” I have to say to myself, “for me that is false.”
I think there is a spectrum from those that want to follow an authority figure to those that want to follow what they feel is the right path. I think at least for me when I was trying to be a TBM I felt I MUST follow the church authorities as that was one in the same as following God. I have swung WAY over to feeling that we need to have a STRONG direct connection with God. I feel that doing everything that the brethren say without asking God is “trusting in the arm of flesh” and I fear that I could be led astray and one day be in front of God saying, “so you were more interested in following church leaders than me?”
Enough rambling. Best of luck. The intense frustration does get better. Except for me (and like Dark Jedi) the 3 hour block stays being hard. At least smart phones have eased that a bit.
Paulista wrote:Heber13 wrote:Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false.
Even though this directly contradicts church teachings? If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization? (Maybe a topic for a different thread.)
I think that DJ and mom3 answered pretty well about this. I think Paulista, it is more about how you are using the words and the connotation of things that would need to be clarified in that debate about what the church does or doesn’t teach, what truth means, and what all truth taught in the church exactly is. And we simply won’t debate that here. Feel free to start a thread or resurrect an old one from the archives if you truly have questions you are interested to hear from me or others about both your questions, because i don’t see it contradicts church teachings and I do believe there is value in all life-improving organizations, wherever they are in the world.
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