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I’ve been listening to the Mormon Stories Podcast with John Hamer (#116/117) where he discusses the succession crisis and the history of how the different sects of mormonism split from each other. they were excellent episodes! john hamer focused a lot of the Community of Christ in 117, and discussed their specific history after the split. i was so surprised to find out that they basically made every decision that i wish the LDS church had made! they did not believe polygamy was of God, they do not cannonize the book of abraham, they have given women the priesthood, etc. at every cultural “crossroads” so to speak, they went the way i personally would have gone. john hamer also states that the leadership generally do not believe in the historocity of the BoM, but still believe it to be a faith promoting book. i’m sure the workings/beliefs of the CoC are old news to most of you, but i was really struck by how similar the CoC’s beliefs seem to be with my own. i’m thinking of finding out where a local church is, so i can go to a sunday service. its hard to believe that there is a brand of mormonism that might actually be inspiring for me, and that i might fit in with! its also a little scary. my DH knows to some extent that i’m disaffected with the church. but he doesn’t know just how far gone i am from mainstream LDS. bringing up the possibility of going to a CoC service will probably be hard for him.
I understand what you are saying, especially since I have a gay son and CofC accepts them too. I did seek out that church in my area and drove there. Nobody was there at the time and so I called and left a message on their phone. No one ever called back. I did drive there one Sunday to attend and listened at the door for awhile. It was a very small church with few members but did not feel right for me. I also did not have good feelings about that church when I went through their visitors center in Nauvoo. So, even though it can sound right, it has to feel right to when you attend. God seemed to lead me to the Nazerene church for now and I really feel the love there. They splintered a few more times over issues like women and the priesthood and on BoM historicity. The largest remaining body of CoC is opento the BoM being non-historical, but I don’t know I would say ALL members see it that way. It probably depends more on the local congregation. I’m open to exploring any faith that peaks my interest, so power to you. It might be hard to find a CoC congregation, depending on where you live. There’s only about 200,000 members worldwide, I think.
I like the idea of their temple in Missouri. It is open to the public, and dedicated to peace. They use it more like the Kirtland-style temple.
I visited a CofC service in Mesa with another unorthodox Mormon. It wasn’t as fun (in a reverent sort of way) as the UU or the LDS service is. Compared to the great singing and poetic feel of the UU service, it was hard for the CofC to complete. On the other hand, the Sunday School class on church history was amazingly honest and humble in comparison to the LDS Sunday School history. One thing about the LDS services, they are pretty well prepared or organized. Same goes for the UU services.
I think it’s great if you have found a place that you’d be comfortable in. I’ve done some exploring, and have lost hope in finding a religious home. To be fair to the LDS church, most of my issues would carry right along with me into all other religions —-authority, obedience, traditions and culture vs truth, petty commandments, conformity, existentialistic approach to spirituality etc etc.
I like a lot of stuff about the CoC, but I think that they have gone a bit too far down the path of Anglican-style vagueness. I feel it is good to have some leeway, but too much and you end up with nothing. When someone says to me, “I don’t believe in any of such and such, and still go to church/mosque/synagogue”, my reaction is “so why do you go there?” – I think one has to get at least some spiritual experience and belief out of a church. Their missionary program is seemingly quite small, or almost invisible.
When it comes down to it, the main traditions of Mormonism all have their strengths and weaknesses, whether they’re Josephite (CoC), Strangite, Bickertonite, Rigdonite or Brighamite. With the exception of some of the nastier “fundamentalist” strains.
But on the positive…
I love the fact that their dress code is more relaxed, and they don’t insist on the Pearl of Great Price, but on the other hand I think they’ve jettisoned the BoM too often. (I think the BoM is valuable, even if you’re a non-literalist. I like it, but don’t know of any hard evidence to support it, outside Arabia, just maybe)
They seem to be much fairer to women, and were progressive on the race issue. They don’t seem to be rabidly homophobic either.
They seem to be less into toeing the line on absolutely everything and allow more individuality.
But having said this, the CoC is simply NOT an option for me. Why? There aren’t any branches here, and I don’t fancy trying to start one up.
SamBee wrote:When someone says to me, “I don’t believe in any of such and such, and still go to church/mosque/synagogue”, my reaction is “so why do you go there?” – I think one has to get at least some spiritual experience and belief out of a church.
Ohhh! Now there is a can of worms for StayLDS discussion. A serious question Sam, and others. If you truly believe this, would you say it to an
LDS memberas well? Would you say this kind of comment in SS? I ask this respectfully – because I think I am not the only here who feels like “I don’t believe in any of such and such, but want/need to still go/remain a part of it all anyway.” I doubt I’m the only one here, I’m just more vocal about it is all.
cakelady has found a place she feels comfortable and that shares her beliefs and values and ideals of what religion should be like. What if some folks NEVER find that place? SHOULD they stay LDS?
I don’t believe in any of “X”, but I still go to church because I still believe much of “Y” and “Z”! Y: Spiritual values and ritual observance, self-improvement, family emphasis, teachings of Jesus, etc.
Z: Community organization, activity structure, social functions, etc.
cakelady wrote:…john hamer focused a lot of the Community of Christ…and discussed their specific history after the split. i was so surprised to find out that they basically made every decision that i wish the LDS church had made! they did not believe polygamy was of God, they do not cannonize the book of abraham, they have given women the priesthood, etc. at every cultural “crossroads” so to speak, they went the way i personally would have gone. john hamer also states that the leadership generally do not believe in the historocity of the BoM, but still believe it to be a faith promoting book…i was really struck by how similar the CoC’s beliefs seem to be with my own…
I like the way the Community of Christ has done things better than the LDS Church has so far too and personally I think the LDS Church should follow their example to some extent now that there is so much anti-Mormon propaganda on the internet that they can’t really hide from anymore. To me, the CoC policies seem much more open-minded, honest, and most of all more Christian than ours. For example, it looks like they don’t treat unwavering belief in so many different doctrines as an expected requirement for full fellowship and their prophet came right out and said that the Book of Mormon “falls outside the traditional standards of historical documentation and veracity.” I can’t imagine hearing anything like that out of our leaders any time soon.
Of course, some LDS apologists could argue that maybe the CoC has been too liberal and wishy-washy and perhaps that’s one reason they don’t have nearly as many members and have been shrinking so maybe a similar approach wouldn’t work very well for the LDS Church. However, I don’t really believe this idea myself because I don’t think the CoC ever had enough members to really compare the two at this point and to me almost all religious sects look like they are already much more liberal than the LDS Church with the possible exception of the JWs, Muslims, and a few other groups of hard-core fundamentalists. There are many different churches that are less extreme with their claims and expectations that all look just as stable and successful if not more so than the LDS Church maybe not in terms collecting money but in their overall attendance and continued support from their followers.
We put all this effort into missionary work already expecting a high percentage of attrition ahead of time as if this is the just way it has to be whereas the Adventists and some Evangelicals like the Assemblies of God have been growing faster and retaining more of their converts. I just don’t think it’s good idea to continue to alienate so many members over some of these questionable traditions anymore but even if we end up losing more members than before I still think it would be better to be a kinder, gentler church because in that case at least the members that leave wouldn’t have as many legitimate complaints to really feel bitter toward the Church about.
The differences in the CoC have interested me as well but in many ways I am like cwald and if I left the LDS church I would leave religion in general. I really desire an individual spiritual path that doesn’t include any authority telling me what I should and shouldn’t believe or do. I don’t say this to discourage you from trying them out. It might be just the place for you. One of the things I like about CoC is their service missions for youth. I would rather my kids serve that type of mission. Makes more sense to me I guess.
Drifting a little off topic, I feel more connected, and more of a kinship with the other denominations within Mormonism after studying history. I really isn’t accurate at all to claim we have no relationship, or the others are just apostates and dissenters from the one true Mormonism. I have a lot of sympathy for the issues and historical context that caused the splits now. cwald wrote:SamBee wrote:When someone says to me, “I don’t believe in any of such and such, and still go to church/mosque/synagogue”, my reaction is “so why do you go there?” – I think one has to get at least some spiritual experience and belief out of a church.
Ohhh! Now there is a can of worms for StayLDS discussion. A serious question Sam, and others. If you truly believe this, would you say it to an
LDS memberas well? Would you say this kind of comment in SS? I ask this respectfully – because I think I am not the only here who feels like “I don’t believe in any of such and such, but want/need to still go/remain a part of it all anyway.” I doubt I’m the only one here, I’m just more vocal about it is all.
cakelady has found a place she feels comfortable and that shares her beliefs and values and ideals of what religion should be like. What if some folks NEVER find that place? SHOULD they stay LDS?
When I say “such and such”, I mean the beliefs of religion/denomination X. I heard a “Methodist” woman talking about this. She didn’t believe in any aspect of Christianity that I could ascertain other than goodness and God, and she wasn’t even sure about the latter in my view. So why did she still go to church? Doesn’t make any sense to me. When I was in that position, I DIDN’T go to church. I probably still have an agnostic streak in me, and there are chunks of Mormonism I don’t necessarily agree with, but if I don’t believe in virtually any of it, there’s no point in me attending. I don’t have any family in the LDS so no ties there either.
I mean if I get absolutely nothing out of the Book of Mormon, even as a non-literalist, then I’d feel like a hypocrite attending. As it happens I do get something out of it, although I think my views on it might baulk some people.
Please note I’m not talking in terms of fundamentalism here.
p.s. I’m not criticizing Cakelady here, I’m just saying that I have come across strands of the CoC which don’t even qualify as Mormon other than in their lineage. I’d say that these two strands would be that there are living prophets, and that Joseph Smith did at least something of spiritual worth (even if he wasn’t completely perfect)
cwald wrote:Ohhh! Now there is a can of worms for StayLDS discussion. A serious question Sam, and others. If you truly believe this, would you say it to an
LDS memberas well? Would you say this kind of comment in SS? I ask this respectfully – because I think I am not the only here who feels like “I don’t believe in any of such and such, but want/need to still go/remain a part of it all anyway.”I doubt I’m the only one here, I’m just more vocal about it is all. SamBee wrote:When I say “such and such”, I mean the beliefs of religion/denomination X. I heard a “Methodist” woman talking about this. She didn’t believe in any aspect of Christianity that I could ascertain other than goodness and God, and she wasn’t even sure about the latter in my view. So why did she still go to church? Doesn’t make any sense to me. When I was in that position, I DIDN’T go to church. I probably still have an agnostic streak in me, and there are chunks of Mormonism I don’t necessarily agree with, but
if I don’t believe in virtually any of it, there’s no point in me attending. I don’t have any family in the LDS so no ties there either…I mean if I get absolutely nothing out of the Book of Mormon, even as a non-literalist, then I’d feel like a hypocrite attending. As it happens I do get something out of it, although I think my views on it might baulk some people. I don’t get much out of the Book of Mormon or any other uniquely Mormon doctrines; in fact some of them irritate me somewhat because I think they are clearly wrong in many cases. However, I don’t feel like a hypocrite attending church at all mostly because I didn’t really choose to be born into this tradition and it is part of my heritage so I don’t think it’s fair for them to tell me what to believe to this extent and then expect me to just get out if I don’t agree in every case. By the time I realized that I didn’t really believe in some of these doctrines anymore it felt like it was almost too late and that it will do more harm than good to just walk away at this point. For example, if I come out of the closet as an “apostate” now to everyone I know then many TBMs simply will not understand and they will almost certainly judge me very harshly especially because I am a RM.
Why should I be a martyr for the truth now when I was just trying to be a good boy and do what people expected me to and have been spoon-fed whitewashed-history, faith-promoting rumors, and standard Mormon answers my entire life? If it was simply about finding an organization that most closely matches my own personal beliefs then I would just look for some non-denominational or evangelical-lite church. Even the Greek Orthodox Church would be a closer fit for me personally than traditional Mormonism but I’m not going to drive across town to attend some new church where I don’t know anyone just because I happen to like their doctrines more than the church I am already familiar with. I understand why some people don’t get it and think there is absolutely no good reason to stay in a church if you don’t agree with many of their doctrines but every situation is different and for some people there are other considerations that are more important to them than feeling like they need to believe in almost everything a church preaches.
Well, I don’t have any family etc in the church, only personal history. I can take it or leave it in that way. I felt called back, a strange thing, but that’s how it is. I’ve reconnected with the BoM, and a lot of the doctrine from believing barely any of it a year ago. I wouldn’t have called myself LDS back then despite being still on the membership rolls.
My take on this is that there has to be some basic belief. I don’t believe in reincarnation, but I do meditate from time to time. This doesn’t make me a Buddhist or a Jain or a Hindu. I find certain teachings from these traditions useful, such as samsara, sunyata, dhukkhu, even enlightenment, and the zen idea of satori. But this doesn’t make me part of these religions. I love Catholic and Orthodox music, but it doesn’t make me either of these.
When it comes down to it I’m either Mormon or Protestant (by family background), and right now I tend to find certain LDS doctrines cover the gaps in Protestantism, such as the damnation of those who died without the gospel, original sin etc
I like a lot about the CoC, but it isn’t an option for me, since there aren’t any branches here. At its best, the CoC is an open tolerant forward thinking branch of Mormonism, at its worst some people in it don’t hold to very much at all. The paradox is that these two may be conflated in some folks minds but there is a subtle distinction.
I reckon this probably is the best option for Cakelady. It’s a case of “suck it and see”. A bit of time in any organization reveals its flaws and hidden aspects.
Quote:For example, if I come out of the closet as an “apostate” now to everyone I know then many TBMs simply will not understand and they will almost certainly judge me very harshly especially because I am a RM.
I wouldn’t recommend that! If you want to do anything like that, I think it needs planning, and you also need to work out who will be open and understanding about it. I’ve worked out quite quickly who I wouldn’t want to discuss doctrinal issues with, and who I can.
Quote:I’m not going to drive across town to attend some new church where I don’t know anyone just because I happen to like their doctrines more than the church I am already familiar with.
Ah, you see that’s just what a lot of converts do! Me anyway.
I thought that I would fit in with them better as well when I visited the center in Independence. I agree with Brian in that with many people even in CoC the BOM is very much literal and “True” .. or so says the “owner” of the visitor center. (He was about as old as dirt though … But very witty and intelligent from what I could sense) SO ……. that one just doesn’t fit me either. I’m not sure what to think about the BOM but I don’t believe it to be divine .. or believe in its creation process. But overall I felt pretty comfortable with some of the things the CoC believes more so than the LDS church. DH’s big epiphany during the visit … “It isn’t true …. the members are quickly dying off.” Or at least thats what he believed at one point. If I HAD to be involved in a church with a TBM DH and had to compromise though I would probably lean towards checking out the CoC .. However currently I don’t want organized religion in my life nor does DH. You should try it out if it is something you think you would enjoy! Why not? If you are serious try to get your DH to check out what they are all about .. It’s not like you are going off the deep end and trying to check out Hinduism or something completely different than the LDS church … CoC isn’t THAT crazy of a jump .. Might be crazy for him but it is less crazy than an even more drastic religious search?! Maybe …
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