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Just got back from a vacation to Alaska. (in case someone noticed that I didn’t post in the last month, that’s where I was) Since our travel schedule never coordinated with the few wards in Alaska, we never went to church, and honestly, I did very little spiritual thought or reading.
The only thing that I really thought about spirituality at all was when I needed God to stack the deck in my favor: I wanted him to hold off the rain until I was done hiking, keep us from getting a flat tire on a dirt road, stuff like that.
Instinctively, I prayed for these eventualities to work out in my direction. Then I thought, this is silly, I’m not sure that: 1. there is a God 2. What ever God is to me that he controls the things I am asking for 3. that he will control events to turn out in my favor just because I ask him to
So I stopped myself. But I missed the feeling that there is some greater supernatural being around helping me out with some situation I otherwise have no control over.
However, I’m not ready to go to “I want to believe it so I will” with it either.
It would be hard to go back to believing in an illusion that all things are controlled by God. But when we stop believing things a certain way, there is opportunity to believe in new things that are important.
I think you can still believe God is there, even if he doesn’t stop the rain for you on a hike. It is probably a safer way to believe in Him so there are fewer disappointments.
But it should be replaced by a new faith. Staying LDS is not just stopping to see things a certain way, but starting to see things in new ways.
I hate to say this, but lately, I think my life won’t be much different than it was when I believe God controlled everything in my life. When my son was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes, things changed for me and I feel much more like someone who is acted upon but who also avoids bad things, and attracts good things by good actions. Life is a mix of blessings that come from good living, as well as bad luck. The only thing you can control is your reaction to these things — by not being arrogant when good things happen and by coping when things go wrong. At the same time, I remember D&C says that god is angered when people don’t acknowledge His hand in all things, so I leave myself open to the fact that there is more going on around me that is divinely appointed than perhaps I’m aware. But that’s just it — i don’t know what is God’s doing and what is my own actions and what is life’s random effects.
But I do know I have control over what I feel, what I do and how I think…and there lies my focus.
Me, too. I am going to try to be like my 8 year old daughter. Quote:I am going to try to be like my 8 year old daughter.
What a great response in so many ways, since children not only are easily taught but also wide open to new discovery.
I’ve said this in more than one thread, but the biggest reason why I didn’t crash into a wall like so many do is that I started this journey, formally, at age 7 when I first realized how differently I viewed so many things I was hearing at church. I believed; I just believed differently. In a way, because of that, I never lost the wonder of discovering things on my own.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I am going to try to be like my 8 year old daughter.
What a great response in so many ways, since children not only are easily taught but also wide open to new discovery.
I’ve said this in more than one thread, but the biggest reason why I didn’t crash into a wall like so many do is that I started this journey, formally, at age 7 when I first realized how differently I viewed so many things I was hearing at church. I believed; I just believed differently. In a way, because of that, I never lost the wonder of discovering things on my own.
I think this is a great way to walk through life including god. But then even as a child I thought of god as a self-sustaining creator. Creating things to function independently as self-sustaining. Without needing his further assistance. Largely when I go hiking, camping, rock climbing that is the way I continue to see it and with joy and wonder as I walk around Yosemite valley etc. The joy of discovery means to me that if we knew everything already it would rather joyless for me. The act of discovery for the first time is what keeps me in awe of god. Even if my mind doesn’t see anything beyond a self-sustaining creator I am at awe at the endless discoveries and possibilities that await with a open and fresh mind to limitless discoveres and beauty there in. I love to parser the differnce between child-like(which I strive to be as a sometimes jaded adult) and childish. I really like your answers Ray and Shawn.
Interestingly Rebeccad, I love the sunshine. But when hiking exploring I also notice wondrous things that happen that don’t during the sunshine … Interactions with the landscape, animals and insects. A different world emerges and although it can be bothersome getting wet was a small price to pay for discovering the complex interactions of gods creations.
I’m struggling with this issue right now. Up until a few weeks ago, I was praying daily, but I didn’t really expect that God would answer my prayers because I have a long history of unanswered prayers. It started to feel like I was kind of insane because I was doing something (praying) that I knew would not change the course of events. Then one night (a few weeks ago) I stopped praying and I haven’t prayed since. It’s something of an experiment I’m trying. I do miss believing that I have God as a “safety net” and I feel alone in a way that I have never felt before. But I have found that this state is preferable to the frustration and confusion of consistently unanswered prayers. I also used to offer a great number of prayers for things like good weather or for some girl to like me, but I have found that those kinds of events run their natural course regardless of whether or not I pray to change them; essentially, God does not answer those prayers. The results of my experiment so far have been this: my life is the same whether or not I pray, indicating that the petitionary prayers that I offered had little or no effect on the outcome of events. In a way, this approach has made me more effective in getting my homework etc. done because I know that I alone am responsible for my success or failure and I can’t depend on God to help me. If I want something done, I must do 100% of the work myself and I can count on God doing 0%. I suppose that it’s helped me become more “self-reliant” in that I do not expect any help at all from God, so I accept sole responsibility for myself and for my own success or failure. If I fail, I must reexamine my actions, and if I succeed, then I give credit to myself rather than God.
But the loneliness hurts. It’s a little unnerving to no longer believe that God will bail me out of a jam. It’s unsettling to no longer believe that everything will turn out alright because God is watching out for me.
But I also think of the arrogance of some of the prayers that I offered: do I really believe that God cares more about me getting to work on time than he does about the prayers of the parents of the 24,000 children under the age of 5 who will die on planet Earth TODAY?
So I miss the belief in a divine safety net. But I don’t miss the frustration of wondering why God isn’t answering my prayers or the exasperation of wondering why God is giving the things that I asked him for to other people.
Quote:So I miss the belief in a divine safety net. But I don’t miss the frustration of wondering why God isn’t answering my prayers or the exasperation of wondering why God is giving the things that I asked him for to other people.
That is exactly how I am feeling right now.
Also previously praying was a way for me to mentally focus.
ie: It is starting to rain, this hike will be very difficult and more dangerous in the rain.
Old Way: God please make it not rain until we are done with the hike
New Way: I have no control over whether or not it rains, but I can control when the end of the hike comes by moving as fast as I can so I can either finish before it rains or spend the least amount of time in the rain. I can also be prepared with appropriate gear for the rain. If it does rain, be more careful on rocks that I am concerned will be slippery, and take time to enjoy the differences between seeing things in the rain and in the sunshine.
The new way seems to be a healthier approach. There is an interesting difference in humility.
Old way: God is in control of all, if I acknowledge that and ask him for something I really want maybe he will give it to me.
New way: The natural world is vast and produces results that are hard for individuals to control or even predict, we need to be prepared for and learn to appreciate it.
To me, the greater humility is in the second.
Your voice echos very loudly here! The world becomes a scary and terrible place when he think we are alone here. Anything can and does happen. It is a hostile place, more hostile for some than others, and to think maybe we don’t have someone watching our backs… It’s nothing short of terrifying.
Sometime ago I thought of the problem of conflicting prayers. For example, as you bring up, the weather. It was a day of a field trip when I was a kid in school and we could only go if it stopped raining. You know what a big deal field trips are! So many of my friends and I prayed the rain would stop. Of course it didn’t. But then I thought, for everyone of us who prays for the rain to stop, there is some happy farmer who needed it to come and prayed for it. And then I thought there are lots of people out there who prayed for it for other reasons. Who am I that God should deny them to please me? And then I thought that on any given day, there are probably 3,000 people praying for it to not rain. What if God listened to them? It would never rain. And on any given day there are probably 3,000 people praying for it to rain. What if God listened to them? So I came to the conclusion that weather is not a prayer God can answer. Not for individuals anyway. Recently I thought of the custody battles that I have been through with my ex and the ones my 2nd husband fought with his. Our situations are very complicated so I will keep it simple and use a generic example. A certain mom believes her ex husband is evil and thinks the kids will be destroyed by living with him. She fights for sole custody and prays a mother’s prayers over her children with desperation for God’s help to let the judge “see” and give the kids to her. But her ex husband has come to believe the same of her and thinks the kids are better off with him. So he prays and prays for God’s help for the exact same thing in his favor. Each party truly believes they are right. Who does God listen to? The more I thought about which prayers we pray will be conflicting with someone else’s, the more I thought it really is much more conflict than we imagined. You need a promotion at work or a job. So you pray. But neighbor Joe is also praying for that job.Certainly we can’t think he will grant it to us because we are so much more righteous than everyone else.
Then I thought of money and health. If even 75% of those who prayed for money and paid tithing received it and even 75% who prayed for health received it then there should be hugely significant statistics between states. And consider depression. According to traditional mormon thinking, Utah should be the richest, most healthy, happiest state. So I looked at statistics. Here it is:
Utah doesn’t even make the top 10 in terms of wealth.
Utah is #7 as healthiest. Is this prayer? Or is it in part due to the natural consequence of the Utah’s tendency to avoid smoking and alcohol? Could be either.
Utah is the second most depressed state in the nation, beating only Rhode Island by .1% Wow!
So statistics don’t seem to suggest much in the favor of prayer.
So I started to think if God doesn’t answer prayers that conflict with others, and if he doesn’t answer prayers to stop people who hurt us because it is their agency, and he doesn’t answer money prayers, and he doesn’t answer happiness prayers… which prayers exactly does he answer?? Why do the scriptures say to pray over EVERYTHING including the cattle of our field if he does not answer prayers regarding these things??
I began to think more along the line of the clock maker theory of God. His hand is in all things because he created each and every thing. But he was ingenious enough to set it up so that it would run itself. In short, He built it, set is up and let it run. For the most part he does not intervene except when something occurs that requires a divine intervention because it will throw off his entire plan, as a clock maker might remove a foreign object or replace a lost spring. But it would be very self centered of me to think that whether I showed up to an appointment late because I was caught in traffic or not because I prayed could possible throw of his Eternal Plan.
I want to believe in little daily miracles. I don’t want to think that He threw me down here and whatever happens happens. It’s a terrible scary isolating feeling. At the same time, I used to pray so hard over little things and big things alike. There was always such a huge feeling of stress involved as I tried to pray hard enough and wanted it so much that I could burst through the noise of this world and get God to hear me and help me. But really in most cases, and certainly in the biggest most important things I prayed for it was to no avail. It was a stress for nothing. I go through periods where I do not pray. I am scared to. Based on past experience He will not help me anyway and the crushing disappointment of the continued unanswered prayers is just too much. So honestly I feel less stressed when I don’t pray. But then I miss it. And I wonder why we are commanded to pray “in all things” not just to say thank you if it doesn’t matter and doesn’t change anything. idk. I am lost here too.
rebeccad wrote:Quote:So I miss the belief in a divine safety net. But I don’t miss the frustration of wondering why God isn’t answering my prayers or the exasperation of wondering why God is giving the things that I asked him for to other people.
That is exactly how I am feeling right now.
Also previously praying was a way for me to mentally focus.
ie: It is starting to rain, this hike will be very difficult and more dangerous in the rain.
Old Way: God please make it not rain until we are done with the hike
New Way: I have no control over whether or not it rains, but I can control when the end of the hike comes by moving as fast as I can so I can either finish before it rains or spend the least amount of time in the rain. I can also be prepared with appropriate gear for the rain. If it does rain, be more careful on rocks that I am concerned will be slippery, and take time to enjoy the differences between seeing things in the rain and in the sunshine.
The new way seems to be a healthier approach. There is an interesting difference in humility.
Old way: God is in control of all, if I acknowledge that and ask him for something I really want maybe he will give it to me.
New way: The natural world is vast and produces results that are hard for individuals to control or even predict, we need to be prepared for and learn to appreciate it.
To me, the greater humility is in the second.
go with the new way, but also recognize your dependence on God to inspire you to make good choices on the hike, and leave yourself open to the fact that he might turn the weather in your favor — but don’t expect it or be disappointed if it doesn’t happen.
I guess this was never a problem for me because I lived by them “expect the worse, hope for the best” philosophy. That didn’t change even after a prayer of faith. I feel for you Rebeccad. It’s a wondrous feeling of comfort to have. My take on it was/is I stopped worrying about wether he would answer my prayers and listen to my loved ones prayers and try what I could for them. In other words, I feel god gave us each other to answer our prayers more then from directly him. If we each owned up to our abilities, talents and resources a lot more prayers would be answered. I know that isn’t much comfort. But I have found it fruitless to worry about what’s beyond my control and just put stock into what ever talents and resources god gave me to help others answer thier prayers. I’m just recently learning how to use them to answer mine where possible. RagDollSallyUT, you really nailed it on some points with prayer. I personally am at the point where I am deciding whether or not I believe in God, so the topic of “Does God answer prayers?” is of special significance. We know that there are some types of prayers that God NEVER answers. Here are a few:
1) God never answers the prayers of amputees to have their lost limbs re-grown.
2) God never answers prayers for world peace.
3) God never answers the prayers of hopelessly infertile couples to have a child of their own.
Who is more deserving of a lost limb to be restored than a veteran of war? And yet God does not answer those prayers. Who is more deserving of a change of sexual orientation than a celibate returned missionary who is struggling with an unwanted same-sex attraction? And yet God rarely (if ever) answers their prayers, and the Church does not teach or expect that those prayers will be answered. One friend I have who has an unwanted same-sex attraction says he has cried and prayed many nights to become straight, and God has not answered his prayers. Why does God fail to answer the prayers of a devout, loving, worthy, responsible but infertile LDS couple for a child of their own, while at the same time sending his spirit children to irresponsible high school girls who get knocked up while they are high at a party?
The problem of competing prayers is very interesting: if ten people are interviewed for a job, and seven of those ten pray and ask God to give them the job, then God must decide to whom he will grant the job at the expense of those to whom he will not grant the job. In situations like these, God is put in the position of allocator of scarce resources and it would force him to make tough decisions about which one of his children’s interests to promote at the expense of his other children.
Every time some guy stands up at the pulpit and thanks God for his wonderful wife/fiancee, there are possibly several or dozens of other guys who have prayed for that girl to like them and God did not answer their prayers. And there are many worthy deserving single people who are praying for a spouse and God will not answer their prayers. I’ve prayed many times for that pretty girl in my YSA ward to like me and it never occurred to me that there may have been several other guys praying for the same thing.
The problem of competing prayers also illustrates a deeper concern I have wondered about: why would God create a situation for his children where they would compete with each other for the good things in life- things like power, money, security, desirable jobs, and attractive mates? Why would God make scarcity and competition such a central feature of the human experience? Why would God wire us to be attracted to good-looking people and then make good-looking people reasonably rare?
I also like the idea that we would see a much different Utah if God answered prayers based on sincerity, devotion, and worthiness (we would also see a much wealthier Utah if tithing worked the way that it is explained in Sunday School.) But since Utah isn’t much better off than the rest of the country in most areas other than church attendance, and is worse off than most of the country in areas like depression and bankruptcy, I think it’s safe to conclude that petitionary prayer, on the whole, doesn’t work.
So if God doesn’t answer prayers to restore lost limbs, or to change sexual orientation, or for world peace, or to save someone from bankruptcy, or for that pretty girl to like me, then what kinds of prayers DOES God answer?
If God does not answer petitionary prayers, does that mean that God does not exist? No. But it would mean that God is something of a deist God, a God who is uninvolved in human affairs. I’m not sure that I want to believe in that kind of God, so I continue to puzzle things out.
Quote:So if God doesn’t answer prayers to restore lost limbs, or to change sexual orientation, or for world peace, or to save someone from bankruptcy, or for that pretty girl to like me, then what kinds of prayers DOES God answer?
I think the answer to this question that makes the most sense to me is:
Quote:I feel god gave us each other to answer our prayers more then from directly him. If we each owned up to our abilities, talents and resources a lot more prayers would be answered.
This brings me closer to thinking along the lines that God is fundamentally a manifestation of people at their best.
Many doctors working together have made life better for people with missing limbs, and have given hope to many couples with infertility issues.
Many good people working together have tried to spread peace, love and understanding around the world.
A long time ago a made a rule to not pray for anyone that I’m not willing to help myself. I am thinking that I need to expand that and change the very way I pray to focus less on petitioning God to do things, and more on what I can do.
I love it, rebeccad. If we really believed “ye are gods” and “children of the most high God” – and if we really believed the kingdom of God is within and among us, it would change SO much of how we see and act.
Old-Timer wrote:I love it, rebeccad.
If we really believed “ye are gods” and “children of the most high God” – and if we really believed the kingdom of God is within and among us, it would change SO much of how we see and act.
I believe if we could practice this, we could establish “Zion” without it being officially established.
:thumbup:
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