I need help.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

On Own Now wrote:

taletotell wrote:

I don’t know why I care so much.

Actually, it’s a very natural and common aspect of faith crisis/transition.

I agree. It’s why I didn’t go to church for years. I couldn’t stand people talking about things they “know” when I know they don’t know that at all. And then there are the ones that make promises they have no business making – as in “I promise you if you pray about this….” So, yeah, it could be said the reason I didn’t go to church was becuase I cared too much and there is no doubt that greatest part of my healing was being able to let go (not that I’m totally healed, mind you). But letting go of things I believed so resolutely was not easy. Today I don’t care if Joseph Smith was a prophet or if the BoM is true, or if the church is true (and frankly I don’t even know what that really means) – but I do still care that Jesus is the Christ, that I know good people at church who would do almost anything for someone else, and that at it’s core the church espouses those two things. Nothing else really matters (and I spoke very similar words in a stake conference not long ago).

Sounds like you have read Matthew 22:36-40

Quote:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[Anonymous]

Quoted and/or referenced in almost every talk I give, LH. Really – nothing else matters (at least to me at this point).

[Anonymous]

The new commandment is my preference: john 13 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Says what kind of love.

[Anonymous]

taletotell wrote:

The new commandment is my preference: john 13 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Says what kind of love.

I like and use that one, too. They’re actually two different commandments. The two great commandments were the two great commandments to the Jews and had been in existence for several millennia. How could the other one, therefore, be “new?” Jesus was talking to and about different groups of people in those two instances. (I only just recently figured this out myself.)

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

I think what happens for many is that they hate to hear other people expressing faith in the very thing that has led to our Great Disappointment… In other words, I just wonder if it is more the thing they believe in rather than that they believe, or ‘know’. For those that hate F&T, I wonder how they would feel if they attended a Methodist meeting and some members of the congregation stood to say, “I know God loves me, and I know that by following him, I will be in Heaven someday” … would they be equally as bothered? If they were at a Catholic gathering, and an elderly parishioner got up and talked about how she knows that Saint James has helped ease the pain of her arthritis, would they be just as infuriated?

I agree. Suppose people were expressing their opinions of what roads were safer to travel at night. Suppose that you belonged to a group that were ardent supporters of a particular road. You believed so much in this road that you felt secure and safe in walking this road with your family (possibly without taking the precautions that you might on other roads). You get mugged, beaten, and left for dead. Luckily, everyone survives and after a period of recovery and physical therapy you return to your group. I expect it would really bother you to hear people proclaim the safety of this road. I suppose it would bother you even more if people were to diminish, devalue, discredit, and generally ignore your personal experience.

When diverse other groups claim that their roads are the safest and true routes you might have your doubts but it is not nearly as maddening. I believe this is because the claims of other groups do not directly challenge, discredit, or devalue your personal experience.

To take this metaphore to the breaking point, the role of the “stayer” is to recognize that even if the road isn’t completely safe it is still a good road and can get you where you want to go (this can be especially true if the road runs from your home to the marketplace). If you are prudent and take precautions in your travels the road can serve your purposes well. A stayer may also advise others in the group not to throw caution into the wind in their own journeys. You might say, “Do not abdicate responsibility for your families wellbeing to the group.”

[Anonymous]

Great metaphor. I would add that every time people expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way. At least I have my wife who is understanding. She gets frustrated with it all too, even though she doesn’t act as though she wants to leave. When a member or even a general authority says something along those lines she holds my hand and gives me an understanding smile.

She feels like she got her answers, but believes me when I say I haven’t and doesn’t blame me. It’s nice.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Quote:

I also think God cares less about the truth than we think. I think he cares more about the impact your beliefs have on your personal growth and character.

This makes sense to me.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

So, despite that I know JS didn’t sit at a table with the plates but rather stuck his head in a hat with a stone in it, can I believe he translated the Book of Mormon by the “gift and power of God?” Sure, it really makes no difference if he did it in the way depicted in the movies and countless Sunday School and Primary classes or with is head in the hat. The real decision is whether or not he did it.

I see Joseph as a flawed man. And I do take solace that such a flawed man could be chosen to do the work of God. I also see him as a prophet.

For me, the turning point was the question, “what do I know for sure?” It took me a while to dig down. For me, the lowest answer came, that I know that my parents loved me. And that they do now. I believed what they taught me. As I grew, I came to know some things for myself. I had experiences in my freshman year of High School reading the Book of Mormon for the first time on my own. Alma the younger, King Benjamin’s sermon. They were strong, emotional experiences for me. I also had a logical connection with 2 Nephi 2, agency, the 2nd article of Faith.

I treasure some of the teachings of the Abraham and Moses. The first few verses of Abraham connect with me. The clarity about our pre-mortal life, etc

I cannot see how all this came to be without divine help.

How do I reconcile this with the other, hard-history that I have found out? It has been helpful to relate to what I know first hand. I know our bishop if a good man. I know he is a flawed man. The same can be said for my parents who I knew well. We all see through a glass darkly.

I see the covenant making part of church as so inspired. I love this scripture:

“Art thou a brother or brethren? I salute you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant, in which covenant I receive you to fellowship, in a determination that is fixed, immovable, and unchangeable, to be your friend and brother through the grace of God in the bonds of love, to walk in all the commandments of God blameless, in thanksgiving, forever and ever. Amen.” D&C 88:133

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/88.133?lang=eng#132

Why would I now want to be a part of an organization that has this as its core? Do I not want to embrace the life God has? Do I not want the help and fellowship of others who seek the same?

I also like the response of my father-in-law. Even if it weren’t true, were else would I go to live a the best life? There may be many other good options. But I have not found any that match the real-life support and the doctrines that enlighten my mind.

[Anonymous]

taletotell wrote:

I would add that every time people expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way.

TTT, just trying to comprehend your perspective. I’ve gotten a sense from your posts that you make pretty liberal use of hyperbole, so I can’t tell what the true extreme of your scale is. Does the above statement accurately reflect how you see people in the Church? I ask sincerely to understand, because its very different from how I see people in the Church, and I’m struggling with the idea of why a person who believes that way would not run as far away from the Church as possible. Understanding you, I think, gives me a chance to examine myself and recognize why I have chosen the Way (hi wayfarer) that I follow.

[Anonymous]

dash1730 wrote:

metalrain, Let me make 4 suggestions.

The first is in your studies. Read something that feeds your soul in addition to your compulsive study of issues. …

Second, I suggest you take a broad view. What is the net result? …

Third, take a broad view of the Church’s effect on your life. …

Fourth, If you like to read and think, I suggest Terryl Givens books. I have read and reread “The God Who Weeps”. For me, It answers questions that make being Mormon worthwhile: Why God cares, given all the crap in mortality, What is faith and how it is different from testimony, & the critical importance of free agency. What may be more relevant to you now is his book “The Crucible of Doubt”. …

I have not read the Terryl Givens books, but I do like the couple of talks I have heard of his. I second this post of dash1730.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

taletotell wrote:

I would add that every time people expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way.

TTT, just trying to comprehend your perspective. I’ve gotten a sense from your posts that you make pretty liberal use of hyperbole, so I can’t tell what the true extreme of your scale is. Does the above statement accurately reflect how you see people in the Church? I ask sincerely to understand, because its very different from how I see people in the Church, and I’m struggling with the idea of why a person who believes that way would not run as far away from the Church as possible. Understanding you, I think, gives me a chance to examine myself and recognize why I have chosen the Way (hi wayfarer) that I follow.

I wouldn’t say I use much hyperbole. There are some things that the church literally says are black and white. Either the BoM is true or the church is false is one example.

The metaphor of the road that is not safe but that everyone claims is safe is incomplete without what I added because the teachings say God is bound if you do as he says, and that he says he’ll manifest the truth of it unto you if you ask with real intent. Anyone who believes the above (that god is bound when you do as he says, and that he will manifest the truth if you ask) has to reject the church if they don’t get an affirmative answer on the church. Anyone who did get an affirmative answer has to assume, by the same token because there is no middle ground here, that the person either did not follow the instructions or is otherwise deficient.

I never received an answer in the affirmative. I have literally been told I am doing it wrong many times.

There are no shades of gray here. Either it is real or it is just another church (albeit a good one) and either god is bound or he is not and either the answer is yes or it is not.

That does not mean it is not a good church. That does not mean it does not have a lot of truths.

Sorry if I sound frustrated. I just got off work and I feel like this should be more clear.

[Anonymous]

taletotell wrote:

On Own Now wrote:

taletotell wrote:

I would add that every time people expressed how the road was perfect they also said that anyone who was mugged on it was deficient in some way.

TTT, just trying to comprehend your perspective. I’ve gotten a sense from your posts that you make pretty liberal use of hyperbole, so I can’t tell what the true extreme of your scale is. Does the above statement accurately reflect how you see people in the Church? I ask sincerely to understand, because its very different from how I see people in the Church, and I’m struggling with the idea of why a person who believes that way would not run as far away from the Church as possible. Understanding you, I think, gives me a chance to examine myself and recognize why I have chosen the Way (hi wayfarer) that I follow.

I wouldn’t say I use much hyperbole. There are some things that the church literally says are black and white. Either the BoM is true or the church is false is one example.

The metaphor of the road that is not safe but that everyone claims is safe is incomplete without what I added because the teachings say God is bound if you do as he says, and that he says he’ll manifest the truth of it unto you if you ask with real intent. Anyone who believes the above (that god is bound when you do as he says, and that he will manifest the truth if you ask) has to reject the church if they don’t get an affirmative answer on the church. Anyone who did get an affirmative answer has to assume, by the same token because there is no middle ground here, that the person either did not follow the instructions or is otherwise deficient.

I never received an answer in the affirmative. I have literally been told I am doing it wrong many times.

There are no shades of gray here. Either it is real or it is just another church (albeit a good one) and either god is bound or he is not and either the answer is yes or it is not.

That does not mean it is not a good church. That does not mean it does not have a lot of truths.

Sorry if I sound frustrated. I just got off work and I feel like this should be more clear.

I get your frustration, and I understand. I, and others here, have been or are where you are. Ihave reached the conclusion that it’s not black and white at all, it’s all gray. We see through glass darkly. It’s not an if/then proposition. The idea that God gives us specific blessing for specific things was part of my faith crisis. I bear you my witness that it doesn’t really work that way – it rains on the good and the bad, and the sun shines on the good and the bad as well.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Quote:

…there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”

This was one of the Savior’s criticisms of the religious “experts” of His day, whom He chastised for attending to the hundreds of minor details of the law while neglecting the weightier matters.

(Uchtdorf, October 2009)

Thanks so much for that quote. I did not remember he said that.

[Anonymous]

taletotell wrote:

Anyone who did get an affirmative answer has to assume, by the same token because there is no middle ground here, that the person either did not follow the instructions or is otherwise deficient.

I agree with this generally. I know that with the BoM, there is the “with real intent” clause. I have heard members talking about an investigator that was not getting an affirmative answer and they assumed that he lacked “real intent” because an affirmative answer would mean that he would be on the hook to change his lifestyle. I even had a conversation with a missionary that told me that their smoking cesation program was 100% successful for those that really wanted to quit. I have never smoked in my life but I know enough about it to have serious doubts about that claim. He seemed confused when I tried to explain. It is too easy to assume that those that do not succeed were not really trying in the first place.

What I believe OnOwnNow is refering to is is your use of definite language. In the sentence he quoted he bolded the phrase “every time.” I believe that phrase would be technically incorrect because it might not happen every time – even if it happens often. There are even voices like Elder Uchdorf and the Givens’ that seem to be saying the opposite about those that struggle – “It is not that simple.”

In the phrase that I qouted above, you used the wording “has to assume.” That is also definative. A less definative phrasing would be “might logically assume.” This would help account for the fact that there are some numbers of members (even if in the minority) that do not have that same assumption. Using this type of less definitive language will come easier with practice.

I do believe that you are correct in principle. Part of the maddening aspect of the church experience is the assumption that those that struggle are too lazy, broken, or sensual (as defined as “preoccupied with the gratification of the senses”).

[Anonymous]

Taletotell – I hope as you read our posts to you, that you won’t feel judged or threatened. Everyone of us has been down our own transitional crisis and we have felt the hot pain of those changes. We have raged, retracted, cried, screamed, fought and grieved. You are in the depths of the placement, it’s good, it’s healthy, it hurts, and we want to help. Our name is Stay – LDS, but it doesn’t mean that our test-ed-monies are the same. Life handed us something we didn’t expect, and it wasn’t an easy gift. It requires a day by day new assembly.

That same opportunity exists for you. The heavens dropped an unexpected package on your door step. It was wrapped in brown paper and left for you to decide what you will do with it. I hope you will take the gift and find joy in it. That’s what we are trying to help with, but the gift guidelines are strict, we can advise, but only you can create. But if you feel hurt after reading the recent comments, I hope you will consider that we have been there and only desire to help and to share how we have found peace, healing and joy. We have no personal issue against you.

Lastly – I have been at this 7 years, and over time I find that “The Church” and it’s culture does differ. I have listened to Richard and Claudia Bushman and wished with all my heart I could live in their ward. Same with Carol Lynn Pearson. I can’t though. I live here. I choose to participate in the church for personal reasons, most everyone in my ward is TBM+, but I have heard conversations and I notice things. We have liberals, people who stick up for LGBT people, feminists. Now none of these would call themselves those things, but they are, you just have to start listening and watching.

Last of all, 7 years later I still have really stinko days in the process. This forum is where I turn to help me think. The feedback helps.

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