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This is not the way this community seeks truth, instead seeking inspiration and support.
I think we all seek truth – but we tend to believe that it’s difficult or even impossible to find most Truth (as in “eternal, objective truth”). We are figuring out what “truth” means to each of us and trying to learn to accept that we really can be agents unto ourselves in that search.
Read the following post. It either will help you understand us better or drive you nuts.
“Imagine If”( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&hilit=imagine+if#p38586 DarkJedi wrote:Old-Timer wrote:The Church doesn’t claim to have all truth.
I agree, Ray, but you have to really pay attention to know that. It would be interesting to poll the average member to see what the majority believes about this issue. My guess is most (especially those who live in the Corridor) believe the church does have all the truth and that is what is specifically wrong with other churches – they don’t have all the truth. Recently my missionary son wrote home about an interesting thing his MP said – that the church doesn’t have a monopoly on the truth. We did have some discussion about it, but most noteworthy to me was that I thought he understood that already – and he didn’t. Granted he is more orthodox than I am, nevertheless I would not put him in a category with the most orthodox.
Here are some quotes on how the church doesn’t claim to have all truth or goodness.
http://richalger.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-lds-church-doesnt-claim-to-have-all.html richalger wrote:Here are some quotes on how the church doesn’t claim to have all truth or goodness.
http://richalger.blogspot.com/2015/03/t … e-all.htmlQuote:We do not claim that others have no truth. The Lord described them as having “a form of godliness.” Converts to the Church may bring with them all the truth they possess and have it added upon. (“The Only True Church”, Boyd K. Packer, Oct 1985)
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Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work. That is the essence of our missionary service (meeting, Nairobi, Kenya, 17 Feb. 1998, Quoted in “Excerpts from Recent Addresses of President Gordon B. Hinckley”, Ensign Aug 1998).
I agree that it is a fairly common teaching in the church that others have some measure of incomplete truth, or truth mixed with error, or the commandments of God mixed with the philosofies of men.
What is less common is an acknowledgement that we do not have all religious truth. Orthodox examples of this include that we do not have the sealed portion of the BoM, or the Book of Joseph that was found with the BoA, or the religious records of the other “sheep” (10 tribes?), nor do we presently have access to the priesthood ordinance of resurection.
What seems to be completely absent is any inkling that others may have some truth or understanding that we as a church do not currently have. I find this particularly frustrating when I see some great programs for children or youth implemented at some other churches but the attitude at my LDS ward is “If it were truly effective, we would already be doing it.” When there are some changes (and they do come and are coming) it comes from top down and is generally assumed to be the result of revelation.
What would it take for the following anouncement to be made? “For the past two decades the [insert name of church here] church has been pioneering a program that has led to a 50% retention of their youth. After obseving this phenominon for many years, we initiated a similar but modified program a few years ago in some select “pilot” LDS wards. The program seems to be very successful and we are now rolling it out church wide.”
taletotell wrote:“You cannot approach the gospel as you would a buffet or smorgasbord, choosing here a little and there a little. You must sit down to the whole feast and live the Lord’s loving commandments in their fullness.” It’s Your Choice By Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin 1994. I know he is not infallible, but I won’t accept that the church is only fallible when they disagree with me, and based on the quote he doesn’t want me to either. Going buffet style means I reject the church’s authority to rule in god’s name, placing my own authority above that of the church. If I do that I am in apostasy.
If I were Unitarian I could get away with that, but not so much in the LDS church.
If even the Prophet only speaks as the Prophet when he is moved upon by the HG (otherwise he is speaking as a wise and loving man but not an oracle of God) AND it is my duty to tell the difference by sensing the HG communicate directly to my spirit – then it would seem logical that I MUST act in some capacity as my own filter in receiving, interpreting, categorizing, and prioratizing the message.
Elder Wirthlin’s quote could be interpreted that we are not to use any filter but are just to accept everything that comes from church leaders as Gospel truth. However believing that I do have an affirmative responsibility to filter what is said with my still evolving understanging of the gospel and the personal revelation of the Holy Spirit of Truth to my soul, I reserve the right to recieve, interpret, categorize, and prioratize Elder Wirthlin’s comments to the best of my ability and understanding.
taletotell wrote:We are talking about what the church believes, and though it doesn’t come up directly in the temple interview, when they ask if you believe the teachings they are not asking if you believe in the teachings you like. I feel like the church is anti-buffet mormon. I think it is all black and white. No hyperbole. After all, “You cannot approach the gospel as you would a buffet or smorgasbord, choosing here a little and there a little. You must sit down to the whole feast and live the Lord’s loving commandments in their fullness.” It’s Your Choice By Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin 1994. I know he is not infallible, but I won’t accept that the church is only fallible when they disagree with me, and based on the quote he doesn’t want me to either. Going buffet style means I reject the church’s authority to rule in god’s name, placing my own authority above that of the church. If I do that I am in apostasy.
If I were Unitarian I could get away with that, but not so much in the LDS church.
First, I know this has been said, but the “church” doesn’t believe or teach anything. It’s a matter of semantics, of course, but it’s really only members of the church – some of them admittedly leaders – who teach anything. IMO those teachings should be limited to the gospel, another word that is open to interpretation (but if we read the Biblical definitions and even what some leaders say we’ll find it’s very simple).
Second, which has also been said, I have never been asked what I believe except if I believe in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. The rest of the questions all have to do with what I do – like sustaining, living the WoW and LoC, and paying tithing. The questions are what they are and not anything more.
Third, also already pointed out, Elder Wirthlin (also one of my favorite guys very close to Pres. Uchtdorf for the same reasons) did say gospel and not church. I was just as guilty of equating the church and the gospel in my TBM days – until I came to my current understanding that they are separate and even distinct entities. The gospel exists (and has always existed) without the church, the church exists to teach the gospel. Neither I nor my bishop and SP believe I am an apostate.
A few quotes regarding simplicity:
Quote:Joseph Smith taught this central truth: “The fundamental principles of our religion [are] the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, … ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion.”10
If we keep our focus on the Lord, we are promised a blessing beyond comparison: “Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.”
Sometimes faithful Latter-day Saints and sincere investigators begin to focus on the “appendages” instead of on the fundamental principles. That is, Satan tempts us to become distracted from the simple and clear message of the restored gospel. Those so distracted often give up partaking of the sacrament because they have become focused, even preoccupied, with less important practices or teachings.
-M. Russell Ballard, Oct. 2014Quote:“I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep. …
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
The invitation to “follow Him” is the most simple, direct, and powerful invitation we can receive. It comes from a clear voice that cannot be confused.
-Elder Eduardo Gavarret, Oct. 2014Quote:In the concluding days of His mortal ministry, Jesus gave His disciples what He called “a new commandment” (John 13:34). Repeated three times, that commandment was simple but difficult: “Love one another, as I have loved you” (John 15:12; see also verse 17). The teaching to love one another had been a central teaching of the Savior’s ministry. The second great commandment was “love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:39). Jesus even taught, “Love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44). But the commandment to love others as He had loved His flock was to His disciples—and is to us—a challenge that was unique. “Actually,” President Thomas S. Monson taught us last April, “love is the very essence of the gospel, and Jesus Christ is our Exemplar. His life was a legacy of love.”
-Elder Dallin H. Oaks, Oct. 2014Quote:“Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
“Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
“This is the first and great commandment.
“And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”1
From that simple statement it is not hard to summarize all I have learned about what choices lead to happiness in families.
-President Henry B. Eyring, October 2013Quote:Brothers and sisters, the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple, no matter how much we try to make it complicated. We should strive to keep our lives similarly simple, unencumbered by extraneous influences, focused on those things that matter most.
What are the precious, simple things of the gospel that bring clarity and purpose to our lives? What are the flecks of gospel gold whose patient accumulation over the course of our lifetime will reward us with the ultimate treasure—the precious gift of eternal life?
I believe there is one simple but profound—even sublime—principle that encompasses the entirety of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we wholeheartedly embrace this principle and make it the focus of our lives, it will purify and sanctify us so we can live once again in the presence of God.
The Savior spoke of this principle when He answered the Pharisee who asked, “Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
-Elder M. Russell Ballard, Oct. 2012Quote:“This is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
“And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
“And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
“… And whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. …
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them” (3 Nephi 11:32–35, 39).
This is our message, the rock upon which we build, the foundation of everything else in the Church. Like all that comes from God, this doctrine is pure, it is clear, it is easy to understand—even for a child. With glad hearts, we invite all to receive it.
-D. Todd Christofferson, April 2012Great quotes, DJ! Heber13 wrote:Great quotes, DJ!
Straight from my reservoir of talk helps!
Just chiming in about the truth thing, because why not. xD I don’t think we’re meant to know the full, unquestionable, objective truth. I don’t even know if such a truth exists, particularly because we each have our own individualized realities based on our experiences and viewpoints. I like being able to determine my own truth and reality, though, and I love that other people are able to do the same. Also, thanks for the quotes about love. I get so caught up myself in those appendages sometimes that I forget how simple the Gospel is compared to how complex the Church culture sometimes makes it.
I loved Elder Wirthlin, deeply, and was amazed constantly by the gems in so many of his talks that didn’t have as much of an impact when he spoke (due to his delivery method) as when they were read after the fact. He wasn’t infallible, either, and I have no problem not agreeing with everything he said.
So you don’t at all feel like you have hamstrung the church when you cut the need for continual revelation via an interrupted line of priesthood authority? I used to separate the the church from the gospel, but I don’t do so as much now. You don’t gather figs of thistles after all.
I also would say the church can and does have beliefs. They are found in the articles of faith and proclamation, and elsewhere.
Lastly I would say that the gospel in its fullness must be more than the atonement and resurrection because the LDS church is supposed to have the corner on the fullness of the gospel, but almost 1/3 of the world has that.
I am realizing I don’t really belong here. I mean no offense, but it sounds to me like your message is believe what you want and believe that it is what the gospel according to LDS approves of even if the LDS Church doesn’t. I can’t do that. If I believe something else I can’t pretend God agrees with me and just hasn’t told his church about it. If I believe something is true and that he has a true church he will tell them.
I believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that is a big deal. If I think God is okay with it then either he hasn’t told his church yet (in thousands of years), I am wrong, or they aren’t his church. Maybe I am just not ready to be here, but it seems like I have been telling myself the church vs gospel story for years and I don’t believe it anymore.
Taletotell – You maybe right, it maybe time to take a big break, not just from us. I understand, many of us here have taken breaks, then roads lead back. Yes we are working with non-traditional paradigms and that is hard. Being in the middle tends to offend both sides. Those who fully reject LDSness or those who more fully embrace it. We don’t claim our way is for everybody, but there are a lot of different reasons to STAY. None of these may apply to your life, and if not, we hope you will find peace, joy, fulfillment and the answers you seek in life. As to the LGBT struggle, plenty of active members believe as you do. Every day they are working to influence that thought. They love (and many of us on this board) their LGBT brothers and sisters. The exclusion of LGBT is not an LDS only thing. I know some private congregations embrace LGBT, and I believe it will continue to grow in time, but plenty still don’t. Even the Catholics whose Pope is inviting LGBT members back to the fold, is not getting his congregants support on the matter. And according to Catholics, they are the only true church because they were founded from Peter, the Apostle of Jesus Christ.
Today’s discussion has been enlightening to me. I have learned a lot from all sides. Thanks for giving us your ideas, we welcome the conversations. Good luck.
In Are You Sleeping through the Restoration?Quote:Sometimes we think of the Restoration of the gospel as something that is complete, already behind us—Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he received priesthood keys, the Church was organized. In reality, the Restoration is an ongoing process; we are living in it right now. It includes “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal,” and the “many great and important things” that “He will yet reveal.”2 Brethren, the exciting developments of today are part of that long-foretold period of preparation that will culminate in the glorious Second Coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
I look at that and question how the church can have a fullness of anything if there’s still room for more revelations, if there’s still room to grow.
taletotell wrote:I believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that is a big deal. If I think God is okay with it then either he hasn’t told his church yet (in thousands of years), I am wrong, or they aren’t his church. Maybe I am just not ready to be here, but it seems like I have been telling myself the church vs gospel story for years and I don’t believe it anymore.
Maybe god has been telling people but it’s taken us (the human race as a whole) thousands of years to finally get to a point where we start to hear it. Also, I wouldn’t characterize it as the church
vsgospel, I might characterize it as the church andthe gospel. Just because they can be separated logically doesn’t mean that they are pitted against each other. taletotell wrote:Lastly I would say that the gospel in its fullness must be more than the atonement and resurrection
because the LDS church is supposed to have the corner on the fullness of the gospel, but almost 1/3 of the world has that. (emphasis added) According to who? I understand the sentiment coming from the perspective of the LDS church being the one and only true church… but lots of churches say that about themselves.
TTT, you apear to be saying that the church is either true (in the sense that it is the church with the most correct message and essential priesthood power) or it is false (in the sense that it offers a damnable false hope that is diverting people from the truth) and that you must make up your mind to either support it or fight againt it. I understand that some LDS leaders have taught exactly that. I just do not see it that way. I believe that current LDS teachings are wrong about some things. I also believe that I am wrong about some things. I do not know what I am wrong about cuz then I could correct my errors and be right.
Hopefully I adjust my errors as I enounter better information. Hopefully the church adjusts their errors as they enounter better information.
What if the church and I both draw lines in the sand and committ all our resources to arguing the point? What if at the end of the day we were both wrong? What if people get unneccessarily hurt in the stand-off?
From where I sit about the only thing that I can be sure of is being wrong (besides death and taxes
So I spend my time loving and supporting and building up those that are important to me. I baptise my children and teach them the best I can. I contribute to the support structures (like the church) that hold the fabric of my community together. I anticipate further light and knowledge at some point and trust that God knows my heart throughout.
I understand that this can appear indecisive, “lukewarm”, or “less valiant”. That is ok. I am working on being more comfortable with myself despite how others might perceive or label me.
Just my individual perspective. Your mileage may vary.
TTT, There is no message that this site promotes. There is a very wide variety of what people here believe. The primary purpose of this site is to help people cope with their issues with the LDS Church/Doctrine/Culture while they are trying to stay connected to the Church in some way, for any variety of reasons. It’s generally done in an attempt to find a peaceful coexistence. I told myself I was going to back off this thread. But I I have to contribute this (from the reservoir again). Elder D. Todd Christofferson, April 2009: Quote:The scriptures speak of the new and everlasting covenant. The new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, the doctrines and commandments of the gospel constitute the substance of an everlasting covenant between God and man that is newly restored in each dispensation. If we were to state the new and everlasting covenant in one sentence it would be this: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
I think it really is that simple.
TTT we do value more orthodox views – they really do help us stay more grounded. Of necessity we are an accepting group with great tolerance. All we ask is that anyone who comes here respects our individual views as much as we respect theirs.
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