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metalrain wrote:taletotell wrote:
I need to build more of a tolerance. I don’t know why I care so much. Partly because I feel trapped, I think. My wife isn’t as far gone as I am and wants to continue living the culture.
Yeah, I can feel your frustration in your posts bud. I’m not sure what to tell you but disconnecting yourself and realizing the church isn’t the dictator of your happiness either way is what’s helped me the most, removed most of the guilt, and has been freeing to say the least. Everyone says it over and over here but it’s true… the gospel and the church are not the same thing. When the faith crisis first hit me I reached out to people to feel validated in my concerns. There is only 2-3 people I talk about it occasionally with now besides this forum. Maybe you should take your wife/kids/family on a little vacation or road trip this weekend if possible?
[Admin note: OK…it’s been 5 pages of discussion (good discussion) since metalrain has talked about help he needed. If anyone wants to discuss help they need support for on their specific issues, please start a new thread under Support and let’s direct other discussion there.
Metalrain should be the next person to post on this thread his thoughts or further questions needing help on the topics bothering him or his progression.]
Hey thanks Heber. I’m kind of enjoying just letting it go because if someone is gaining help or being helped through the tangents then I think it’s a good thing- we’re in this together. I have some of the same struggles as TTT- the whole black and white approach we’ve always been taught is.. partially true I think. But we can choose to live in a gray world. D&C 58:27, summarized, being an agent unto ourselves I think might have application with this. It’s a long process. Part of me sometimes just wants to throw it all away, but I haven’t investigated hard enough. I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn’t feel anything in response. That hurt. I don’t know if it’s just because I don’t recognize things anymore, or if I’m supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
metalrain wrote:Hey thanks Heber. I’m kind of enjoying just letting it go because if someone is gaining help or being helped through the tangents then I think it’s a good thing- we’re in this together.
I have some of the same struggles as TTT- the whole black and white approach we’ve always been taught is.. partially true I think. But we can choose to live in a gray world. D&C 58:27, summarized, being an agent unto ourselves I think might have application with this. It’s a long process. Part of me sometimes just wants to throw it all away, but I haven’t investigated hard enough. I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn’t feel anything in response. That hurt. I don’t know if it’s just because I don’t recognize things anymore, or if I’m supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
You were up very early Provo time – early morning custodial job? (My son has one of the hundreds of those.)
I agree that some things are black and white – either Jesus is the Savior or not, there’s not much wiggle room there. There are some other things about him that could be interpreted differently, though – gray stuff.
And it is a long process, many of us have been at it for years. On the other hand, I have come to understand that conversion itself is a long process – it is not an event. Pres. Uchtdorf recently alluded to the idea that the restoration is an ongoing process, it wasn’t an event.
I have had similiar experiences to your prayer yesterday, times where I have prayed with real intent and just laid it all out there with nothing. I still struggle with that, it was a part of my own faith crisis that is not yet resolved – and I don’t see a resolution in the near future. I don’t know why, either – but it is what it is, and right now I can live with the idea that some things just are.
As a moderator, I appreciate your sentiments about the thread going on perhaps in hopes it would help others. There are many lurkers here, members of the forums and not, and we never know who we’re going to affect. However, this thread was started by you to help you, and it needs to get back to that. Others can start their own threads for their own questions and discussions. How can we help you?
metalrain wrote:I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn’t feel anything in response. That hurt. I don’t know if it’s just because I don’t recognize things anymore, or if I’m supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
It’s taken me a long time, but I’ve learned that I don’t get the standard “feeling” answers to prayers, and that’s OK. That’s just how I am. Over time, I’ve been led to believe that my answers come in ways that my logical mind can accept, usually through multiple coincidences and chance encounters and interactions, and that the God I believe in trusts me to be able to come upon the answer in my own, unique way. Sometimes, there seem to be more than one “correct” answer, and it’s up to me to choose; so far in life, when such a choice has come up, I’ve always seemed to be in the right place at the right time.
That doesn’t work for everyone. Just as the standard feeling answers don’t work for everyone, such as people like me.
Quote:metalrain wrote:
I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn’t feel anything in response. That hurt. I don’t know if it’s just because I don’t recognize things anymore, or if I’m supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
Like West said, it will be different for everyone.
Over the past years as I have wrestled, cried out and yearned, I too have felt silence. One day in particular it hurt. My natural inclination was to assume I was unworthy to hear. That hurt. In that grief though I heard, “I love you.” I should have felt better but it felt worse. I began to wrestle with those 3 words. What did they mean, what did they validate and so on. As I kept wrestling I had a strange sense. I felt like one of my kids, sitting at the kitchen table working on hard math problem, just to the side of me stood my parent. Not completely gone from the room, but back just enough to watch me wrestle the problem. I may get it wrong or right, but it was the effort and experience of the effort that made it necessary for the parent and child to have some space.
Right now I cling to that, I no longer expect answers, I keep communicating, mostly through expressions of gratitude or just saying “Hey I am worried about this or someone.” Then I repeat the line from the Lord’s prayer -“On earth as it is in heaven.” Then I get up and try to make a go of life.
I believe he really is proud of each of us. For him watching us go to school is tough. I know as a Mom I step in so often, just to fix things. His restraint is amazing. Keep running, keep talking, he is there.
DarkJedi- I was just up late on a bender watching the newest season of Walking Dead. I can’t put the shows down when I start sometimes 😯 . I think if a zombie apocalypse happened, not having to worry about faith and only surviving would be convenient in a sense, don’t you agree?😆 I think, if the restoration was true, it by definition HAS to be an ongoing process. If it’s not, then it’s not a restoration. So that’s true.
West, I know what you mean. I feel like a lot of us are cut from similar molds in terms of God letting us make our own decision and having the trust that we will do the right thing. Unfortunately as a result, I feel like our course corrections are often “harder”.
Mom, does it bother you you don’t get answers like that? I mean, do you think it’s ok that you don’t expect answers? I have a hard time being ok not getting anything back… by definition, prayer is a communion, a mutual conversation. I think when I prayed before my faith crisis when things were going well, hearing back was important, but I felt like I knew things that I don’t now. And now that I don’t know, I feel like I NEED to hear an answer back to help me keep going.
I met with some friends today who are married, and both of them have been through what I’ve been going through and it helped. One of them from a young age had separated the church and the gospel however. I wish I would have been told that when I was a youth and not as a young adult. Changing paradigms SUCKS.
metalrain wrote:Changing paradigms SUCKS.
Haha… yep, that’s true… at the beginning, and sometimes for a while. But many find a rewarding new light ahead of them; not everyone, but many. That’s why it is important to strive for it.metalrain wrote Quote:I wish I would have been told that when I was a youth and not as a young adult. Changing paradigms SUCKS.
YEP, try doing it at 50. Oh wait you don’t know 50 yet. It’s pretty fun.
Quote:
Mom, does it bother you you don’t get answers like that? I mean, do you think it’s ok that you don’t expect answers? I have a hard time being ok not getting anything back… by definition, prayer is a communion, a mutual conversation. I think when I prayed before my faith crisis when things were going well, hearing back was important, but I felt like I knew things that I don’t now. And now that I don’t know, I feel like I NEED to hear an answer back to help me keep going.In the beginning yes. I had always had the promptings, answers, dreams, voices, experiences. The silence was terrifying. I was afraid I was being punished. This added intensely to the darkness. I wanted to scream forever and make it go away. Then one day during one of the long dark heart wrenching days, while sitting on my floor crying, an image popped before my face. A little girl, crying, surrounded by a pile of toppled over wooden blocks. Suddenly 2 people joined the little girl – her deceased, never active in the church, grandmother, and Jesus Christ (or a representation of him). I knew in that moment who the little girl was, and that help was on it’s way. Two weeks later, while rock climbing, I got stuck. My hands were loosing grip, my knees ached from the crevice my toes were crammed into, when again an image burst forth, two scarred, battered hands were climbing next to me just for a moment. Immediately I knew what the hands represented. They were a reminder that this life is like a hard climb but it can be done, and I could trust that divine resources were available.
I had waited nearly 3 years for those. I thought the heavens were opened again (and they were) but not like a faucet. I have now learned, I hope, to hold out a bit longer when the silent hours come. Today after I wrote you, I remembered that Joseph Smith had a similar situation. This masterful vision in a grove. Life changing for him and many others. Yet three years pass and nothing. We rarely think about those 3 years. Did he pray? Was God silent? Who knows. On top of that, if the story is accurate, he didn’t get what he wanted. He just wanted to know his standing before God. Instead he gets an Angel, a long lecture. Repeats of the lecture and whole new life.
My only suggestion is don’t throw away the few you had. They have validity. I think you are doing great.
Hi, metalrain It’s good to have you here! Your story really resonates with me- many of us here are still in that position, or have been. It looks like there has been some great advice on here, and I hope you find it and the rest of this forum helpful. You’re not alone at all.
mom3 wrote:YEP, try doing it at 50. Oh wait you don’t know 50 yet. It’s pretty fun.
It does. I remember reading in Fowler’s book on the stages of faith that it is best to move out of stage 3 in early 20’s. Mine was right as I was turning 50. I felt like an old fart AND my world was falling apart.Metalrain, I can sympathize with you.
Quote:Mom3 said:
Joseph Smith had a similar situation. This masterful vision in a grove. Life changing for him and many others. Yet three years pass and nothing.
We rarely think about those 3 years. Did he pray? Was God silent? Who knows.On top of that, if the story is accurate, he didn’t get what he wanted. He just wanted to know his standing before God. Instead he gets an Angel, a long lecture.Repeats of the lecture and whole new life. Me too. As I reflect on my 60+ years as a member in the church, I feel I have had occasional divine communication, but definitely not reliable nor consistent. Words to characterize my experiences include: unreliable, paradoxical, compassionate, beautiful logic and intelligent, but they are always comforting when the do come.
My FC first crested shortly after college. I had just finished getting my masters but had gone a year without employment. I fasted, prayed my heart out, not just about employment but trying to build some sort of relationship w/ God. Anything. I got nothing. My pleading and begging were of no avail.
And I was struggling with the temple ceremonies trying to see what relevance they had to my relationship with God. I was particularly worked up about the signs & tokens. They just didn’t make sense to me. Since my temple recommend was still current I decided to try it one more time. Though at the time I lived in SLC, I decided to drive to Manti where the crowds wouldn’t be so great. I was grateful to get on a session that was a comfortable size, large enough to get lost in and small enough to not feel like a cattle heard. Throughout the session I contemplated my question until I got a response. Suddenly, out of nowhere, the words came clearly and distinctly to me “Don’t worry about it. I don’t understand it either, but don’t reject the tokens for someday you will be glad you didn’t.” I was fully aware of the irony of that statement, but I had with it an unmistakable feeling of peace and comfort. My FC continued to deepen, but I never felt a need to question those ironic words, even as I went AWOL from the Church.
During this time my brother suffered a stroke, and was in recuperation for about a month. The day he was to return to work, he committed suicide. My sister-in-law was understandably distraught. A few days after the funeral, I felt prompted to visit her. As we chatted, I felt words of comfort and compassion for her and my brother flow through me. I was expressing thoughts I had never thought before, that flowed clearly and moved both of us to tears. We embraced, comforted that all was well.
Seventeen years later I was going for a walk and passed a Mormon church (in SLC still). I got a very distinct feeling that I needed to attend church. So Sunday I went to Church. Nothing significant happened, and nobody bugged me or tried to find out who I was. I went to church 2 more times, different wards to keep my anonymity. Then I got a strange prompting to call up my resident bishop. “Do what????” I asked. Just talk to him, I was told. So I made an appointment and soon found myself talking to a kind, understanding and amazingly patient man. I just shared my frustrations and agonies with organized religion, esp. Mormonism, and he agreed with most of my points. I met with him two more times, before a long time friend (who at the time was the RS Pres & Temple worker) decided to get married. She knew full well my feelings about the Church, and said she would be willing to get married any place I wanted. She had only one request: Would I ask the bishop what it would take for me to get a temple recommend. I wasn’t wearing G’s, paying tithing, nor attending church with any kind of regularity. But I agreed to ask.
My interview followed the pattern of our other discussions as we talked about the temple questions philosophically. Then he said: “I will ask you the formal questions. Please answer with only Yes or No:”. I did, then he asked me to be patient while he petitioned God for guidance. Five minutes later he was filling out the recommend. He also asked me to resume wearing G’s, attending church and paying tithing. He then counseled to get an appointment with the caution that the SP was a knee-jerk accountant by profession, so answer him with only a “Yes or No”, avoid any discussions. I said “thank you” and took my leave. A few days later I had my recommend.
Two decades later, I have had my ups and downs with the Church. I am in ward many states removed from the Mormon corridor. I feel the good parts of Mormonism are divinely inspired (emphasis on education, healthy lifestyle, fellowshiping and aiding one another, the plan of exhalation, and the deeper parts of Mormon theology like “The God Who Weeps” by Givens). I still struggle with the anti-intelectualism, and dogmatism, that pervades the Church. Recently I have been learning great lessons from StayLDS about the value of allowing and appreciating TBM’ers opinions, just as much as I value mine. It’s a tough lesson to learn to tolerate and be patient with the intolerant. But I am finding it to be very profound and perhaps a significant way for me to build bridges to TBM’ers while maintaining my own integrity. IMO it is better than giving up and staying home.
Nevertheless I feel a need to attending sacrament meeting, and teach the HP class whenever I can. For now that is enough. I may even feel comfortable saying I have a testimony. Such is my experience with Divine will in my life.
Dash – thanks so much for sharing that. As I have struggled with my FC and faith transition I have studied what I had as my moments of feeling I was getting guidance from above. Most are confusing as I think they were just emotions. I really come down to 3. One was some interesting (comforting) coincidences with a sibling before he passed away at a young age – but I could see that as just coincidences. One was one time of intense stress and pleading for comfort and getting some rather immediate calming. But then I pleaded even harder when I was in my FC and didn’t feel any peace come. Only slowing calming down over the years. But the last one is really what keeps me feeling that “there IS something in the church”. I don’t feel like going into detail, but a very unexpected thought came suddenly and VERY clearly into my mind about my mission just before I got my call. It is the one time I can say I “knew” something with 100% confidence. There is no way my scientific mind can explain it away.
I can relate to you both with the experiences- not as much as I can with you Dash because I feel like you’re much further down the road than I am. Those are some great experiences, and that gives me some hope of staying in the church. Your bishop sounds like a true ambassador of Christ. I wish there were more leaders in the church like him. My patriarchal blessing tells me I was blessed with a double portion of faith and really I think sometimes that’s the only thing that keeps me going. I mean, in reality the effect of the church in my life isn’t a bad thing and I recognize that. Not going to church isn’t going to dramatically alter my life either.
i’ve kind of felt, not in a voice or anything sort of way, that God kind of just wants me to explore and be on my own for a while and that’s disconcerting I think- especially with all the promises in the scriptures related to prayer and revelation. But, it’s always been a struggle for me. I thought that the whole process would take me a short amount of time but I am coming to realize how wrong I was on that.
Read my recent Sac Mtg talk in the current thread for talks and lessons. I mentioned that everyone experiences God in different ways, and I could see a lot if heads nodding in the congregation. I think so many people understand that idea that it gets left unspoken too often, since those people assume everyone (or most people) understand, also.
metalrain wrote:Not going to church isn’t going to dramatically alter my life either.
Agreed!
:thumbup: metalrain wrote:i’ve kind of felt, not in a voice or anything sort of way, that God kind of just wants me to explore and be on my own for a while and that’s disconcerting I think- especially with all the promises in the scriptures related to prayer and revelation. But, it’s always been a struggle for me. I thought that the whole process would take me a short amount of time but I am coming to realize how wrong I was on that.
Excellent!!! Well said. I have also found, after trying to get comfortable with “being on my own for a while” some unexpected signs that perhaps I’m not all alone. Problem is, I just can’t tell when those signs show up and when they don’t, and I certainly can’t expect them to be there when I think I really need them. But…if I’m honest…I still see flickers of signs that I may be being helped along the way…and so it leaves me questioning what I choose to believe. And so, I choose to believe I am doing OK, although feeling on my own more than I’d like…I do think I’m being guided. I choose to believe it, and accept it for what it is, even if it wasn’t what I hoped it would be.
In other words, when you start accepting you’re gonna head onward down the path on your own…don’t block out the possibility…you’re not completely on your own. But God is saying, “You’re doing great, keep going.”
When I least expect it…I have found small things happen that I choose to believe God is still working in my life. I just do. Perhaps that’s how I’m wired. But I’ve seen small miracles despite my huge trials. I wish they were bigger miracles and smaller trials, but I don’t get to choose that. I just get to choose what I do and think about it. I see the world differently. I just believe things my way. I think I see it more clearly than I did before.
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