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taletotell wrote:
There is no harm in going, loving, and belonging.
Well said!:thumbup: Heber13 wrote:taletotell wrote:There is no harm in going, loving, and belonging.
Well said!:thumbup:
Agreed! Although you reach the same conclusion I do, the things you do like are different. That’s really OK. I have only recently come to grips with the idea that others need the faith affirmation that God helps them find their lost car keys. I frankly find it absurd, but it’s OK because it’s what they need. My needs are far different (and maybe less demanding). As you say, there is no harm done by going, loving, and belonging. If only even the average member understood this. (FWIW I think some GAs do).I’m curious, Taletotell (and if you hang around you’ll see that shortened to TTT), have you read Rough Stone Rolling?
DarkJedi wrote:
I’m curious, Taletotell (and if you hang around you’ll see that shortened to TTT), have you read Rough Stone Rolling?I am about a third of the way through rough stone rolling. I am a little surprised at some of what he hasn’t said, and at some of the things he seems to imply without ever saying.
So far I like it and think it is a good source, but I wouldn’t use it as an only source for info.
Fwiw, the Carthage Jail presentation is explicit in its mention of Joseph having a gun and firing it in self-defense. There is no ambiguity in the account; it is crystal clear. That is one aspect that absolutely has not been hidden in any way – and, as DJ said, it was a slaughter.
This is not probably the right thread for this conversation though. I look forward to reading more. Tend to read it at night at work. taletotell wrote:DarkJedi wrote:
I’m curious, Taletotell (and if you hang around you’ll see that shortened to TTT), have you read Rough Stone Rolling?I am about a third of the way through rough stone rolling. I am a little surprised at some of what he hasn’t said, and at some of the things he seems to imply without ever saying.
So far I like it and think it is a good source, but I wouldn’t use it as an only source for info.
I am about the same place you are, I think, and I agree that I am sometimes surprised at the lack of detail or what it doesn’t say. I have it on hold at the moment because I am reading Crucible of Doubt (in anticipation of hearing Terryl Givens speak). It is, however, related to the topic and info found in RSR is certainly appropriate to use in support of Metalrain.
True. I could just easily end up reviewing the details and talking history though. I went to church today- about half of sacrament. I felt peaceful sitting there, one of the talks wasn’t so much about doctrinal subjects. Then one of the bishopric got up and talked about something I’ve been disagreeing with the church about- works vs grace. He gave the typical through grace we are saved, but faith workout works is dead stance. I’ve realized how much more weight there is on grace than anything else- and no matter how much I do, it’s never enough. That’s comforting, in the sense that God really loves us. I think the church places a lot of value in “works” like indexing, home teaching, and etc, but what I’m really realizing the works that I find the most fulfillment for are being available for people I see actually struggling and who actually need help. Being totally non judgmental (the whole FC has done that to me- I used to be a hardliner about garments and other stupid stuff, but now I see the toxicity in a lot of previous viewpoints)
Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind- the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.
I’m not leaning in any direction- I’ve kind of just been floating and really thinking a lot about everything. There is a lot of good, but a lot of bad. That’s in everything though. The biggest struggle or concern I have right now is my dating life because I’m not sure how I line up with anyone right now. But I read a quote on here that has really resonated with me, “Love transcends religion”. If only that were true in reality. My
Really appreciate the input and thoughts, I have read all of it multiple times and have thought a lot so far. I don’t see an end in sight but that’s ok. It’s not consuming me.
metalrain wrote:Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind-
the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.
Apologies because I’ve referred to this often, but I like the analogy of the church as a walking stick and not the path itself.
metalrain wrote:Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind- the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.
I know I’ve said this before, but this was the greatest help to me. I totally agree with Ann.
Ann wrote:Apologies because I’ve referred to this often, but I like the analogy of the church as a walking stick and not the path itself.
Like.
I’m not a strong reader. I’ve never been one to read books in my leisure time. Even though I liked the book for the most part I ran out of steam about 3/4ths into reading RSR. That’s when some of the obsession with all things Mormon started to die down.
Ann wrote:metalrain wrote:Another thing that has really helped me this week is separating the church and the gospel even more in my mind-
the church teaches the gospel and isn’t the gospel. Faith, repentance, persevering. Loving, charity, and etc. Are what really the gospel is about.
Apologies because I’ve referred to this often, but I like the analogy of the church as a walking stick and not the path itself.
Love this. That realization has become liberating to me recently.
I’m not sure how I feel about the temple in general, I think that’s my next mental exploration frontier. It’s interesting because I don’t distinctly remember ever feeling the spirit in the endowment but I do in the initiatory and the sealing ceremonies. I slept the other night without my garment top and felt a little guilty, cold, and remembered how soft my blankets are.
Ann – I keep a copy of the post about walking sticks in my drawer, I read it when I feel totally overwhelmed. Metalrain – I have a 26 year old BYU graduated daughter who is walking a similar mine field. She hasn’t had a crisis, but her parents are on the spectrum of life after transition, she is still trying to determine how to navigate dating etc. I believe more people like you exist, it’s just figuring out how to find them. Maybe you could try connecting with people on the BYU 100 Hour Board
http://theboard.byu.edu/about/ I personally have wondered why God would ask for the rituals. From a psychological standpoint I see them tying us to the church, but not to God. I try to live by having charity and not judging myself or others too harshly. taletotell wrote:I personally have wondered why God would ask for the rituals. From a psychological standpoint I see them tying us to the church, but not to God. I try to live by having charity and not judging myself or others too harshly.
Yes, I think I see it the same way. When I think about my relationship with God, I try to think about it in terms of an earthly family, so I can understand it. When I imagine the day that my kids will go out into the world, make their own decisions, get married, and have families of their own, I compare that to the way God would have sent us down to Earth to make our own decisions and do our best while we’re here, before we return to him. When my kids come back to visit home after they’ve moved away, I couldn’t imagine requiring them to know the secret password and the secret handshake to get back into the house. I’ll welcome them in with open arms. I don’t see the point of temple ordinances, other than to bind a person to the church by using their ‘eternal family’ as bait to keep them coming back.
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