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taletotell wrote:
I just read an uctdorf talk about truth. Talks about praying for confirmation. Says if you do our church will be confirmed the true one. Seems pretty straight forward. In fact, seems like th premise since day 1.
TTT, I’ve read that talk several times, and I quote from it often. I recognize that multiple people can hear or read the same talk and get entirely different messages. Please understand I am not trying to be contentious here, but I don’t see anywhere that Pres. Uchtdorf says that in this talk. He does talk about getting a confirmation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost – but the gospel and the church are not the same thing. Can you point out to me where you got that he says we can know the church is true?
He says gospel that’s true. Add in the BOM, D+C, prophets led by God, and the only post apostasy priesthood and you got a church. Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true? Make no mistake. The LDS church claims to be the only true and living church, having a fullness of the gospel. That isn’t quite infallibility, but they never delineate where cannon starts and human frailty ends until years later. Saying the prophet is wrong, and acting accordingly is apostasy.
metalrain, It doesn’t matter whether the Church claims to be the true one or whether other people believe the Church to be the true one. It only matters what you believe. If you believe that the Church is ‘true’ then fine. If you believe it has truth, but not all truth, that’s fine, too. If you believe that it has no truth that is unique to it, but that it still provides a framework for faith, then fine. If you believe that the Church provides neither truth nor environmental value… again, that’s fine.
My hope for you is that you can get to a point where you no longer measure your spirituality using the Church as the reference point. In order to do that, I have found it helpful not to worry about what the Church says about itself or what the members say about the Church. That’s their opinion, and they are entitled to it. They do it from a position of faith, and their faith belongs to them. At the same time, I have my views based on my position, and it belongs to me.
It’s not easy to get to immediately, so don’t worry about having feeling of disorientation. That’s normal and can last for awhile. There is no switch to move from belief to a stable non-belief. It’s a process. Here, we often called it a “faith transition”. But many find as they go through the process that the Church can still provide a positive environmental framework for what they do believe. I still attend Church. I usually enjoy it on some level, even if it is only a social level. I sometimes enjoy it on a spiritual level. But I’ve learned to filter the stuff I don’t believe, and allow that others believe it and I’m OK with other people believing what I don’t.
taletotell wrote:He says gospel that’s true. Add in the BOM, D+C, prophets led by God, and the only post apostasy priesthood and you got a church.
Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true? Make no mistake. The LDS church claims to be the only true and living church, having a fullness of the gospel. That isn’t quite infallibility, but they never delineate where cannon starts and human frailty ends until years later. Saying the prophet is wrong, and acting accordingly is apostasy.
You’re right, he’s not going to come out and say the church isn’t true and in all probability he believes it is. However, in this talk he does not say either way, he only talks about the Gospel of Jesus Christ (specifically stated in those words and not just left as the more vague “gospel”) – which is distinct from the church. He made no reference to the church, BoM, D&C, prophets, or anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We should not read anything else into what any of them say – especially him. Pres. Uchtdorf is a master at saying what he means in terms everyone can understand. My issue is not that church leaders haven’t taught this is the only true church, etc. (although that rhetoric has been toned down of late). My issue is that Pres. Uchtdorf did not say so in this talk and he did not say we can pray to know that the church is true in this talk.
Good call Quote:Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true?
There aren’t any. We all know that. Frankly, it’s a non-issue, since it’s an impossibility.
This very talk was one that derailed me a couple of Sundays ago. Listening to the teacher and the class you would think that your quote is exactly what the talk says.
Quote:He says gospel that’s true. Add in the BOM, D+C, prophets led by God, and the only post apostasy priesthood and you got a church.
Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true? Make no mistake. The LDS church claims to be the only true and living church, having a fullness of the gospel. That isn’t quite infallibility, but they never delineate where cannon starts and human frailty ends until years later. Saying the prophet is wrong, and acting accordingly is apostasy.
Though infallibility and such wasn’t in the discussion, the synonymous idea that LDS church is The Gospel of Jesus Christ was full on board in the room. So many examples of “In the Book of Mormon and Follow the Prophet” were flying around. I came home and vented here because I want my version which is similar to DarkJedi to be the one we discuss at church.
Quote:However, in this talk he does not say either way, he only talks about the Gospel of Jesus Christ (specifically stated in those words and not just left as the more vague “gospel”) – which is distinct from the church. He made no reference to the church, BoM, D&C, prophets, or anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
On my good days I try to remember that nearly every church says it’s Gods true church. And no top level leader is going to say it’s not. Also many of us, especially orthodox people living in first world places, look at their lives which are blessed, smooth, abundant and to them that life alone is a testament to them belonging to God’s True Church. I see this with my Evangelical friends all the time. Your life just gets better because of your connection.
So yes we non-literal people get the luck of not being with the crowd and darn it sometimes it sucks.
taletotell wrote:He says gospel that’s true. Add in the BOM, D+C, prophets led by God, and the only post apostasy priesthood and you got a church.
Can anyone show me any apostle or Prophet saying the church isn’t true? Make no mistake. The LDS church claims to be the only true and living church, having a fullness of the gospel. That isn’t quite infallibility, but they never delineate where cannon starts and human frailty ends until years later. Saying the prophet is wrong, and acting accordingly is apostasy.
Hi, taletotell – This reminds me a little of the frustration after Uchtdorf’s “doubt your doubts” talk, which is what it’s become. “Doubt your doubts” plastered all over Facebook for months after, but the talk itself said so much
more. And sometimes it’s the talk itself that says so much lessthan what people make of it. If I’m going to stay in the church, I have to develop much higher tolerance for feeling different and in conflict with a lot of what I read and hear. It’s not comfortable, but there’s no going back. It’ll either get comfortable, or I’ll adjust my connection and investment in the church again and see if I’m at peace
there. I need to build more of a tolerance. I don’t know why I care so much. Partly because I feel trapped, I think. My wife isn’t as far gone as I am and wants to continue living the culture. taletotell wrote:I need to build more of a tolerance. I don’t know why I care so much. Partly because I feel trapped, I think. My wife isn’t as far gone as I am and wants to continue living the culture.
Yeah, I can feel your frustration in your posts bud. I’m not sure what to tell you but disconnecting yourself and realizing the church isn’t the dictator of your happiness either way is what’s helped me the most, removed most of the guilt, and has been freeing to say the least. Everyone says it over and over here but it’s true… the gospel and the church are not the same thing. When the faith crisis first hit me I reached out to people to feel validated in my concerns. There is only 2-3 people I talk about it occasionally with now besides this forum. Maybe you should take your wife/kids/family on a little vacation or road trip this weekend if possible?
taletotell wrote:I don’t know why I care so much.
Actually, it’s a very natural and common aspect of faith crisis/transition. As Glenn L Pace said in the 80’s, “You can leave the Church, but you can’t leave it alone.” I think there is a lot of truth to that. Let me take, what for me is the most clear example of this. One reaction many of us here share or have experienced at some point is the utter frustration when people rise on Fast & Testimony Meeting and say, “I know the Church is true.” It makes us cringe, because we believe that is impossible. But more than just that, I think we see ourselves in that statement and wish that we could save our old selves from saying those things.I have kind of used F&T declarations as a way for me to gauge how I am doing about accepting the faith of others. When I feel bothered, I recognize that I need to let it go. That their faith belongs to them, and that I should employ the golden rule; trying to be as accepting of their beliefs as I hope they are of mine. Here’s what I’ve said before on the topic that helps me:
On Own Now wrote:I think what happens for many is that they hate to hear other people expressing faith in the very thing that has led to our Great Disappointment… In other words, I just wonder if it is more the thing they believe in rather than that they believe, or ‘know’. For those that hate F&T, I wonder how they would feel if they attended a Methodist meeting and some members of the congregation stood to say, “I know God loves me, and I know that by following him, I will be in Heaven someday” … would they be equally as bothered? If they were at a Catholic gathering, and an elderly parishioner got up and talked about how she knows that Saint James has helped ease the pain of her arthritis, would they be just as infuriated?
We went for a road trip 2 of the last 3 Sundays 
Hey I’m jealous! Bring me next time 😆 On Own Now wrote:taletotell wrote:I don’t know why I care so much.
Actually, it’s a very natural and common aspect of faith crisis/transition.I agree. It’s why I didn’t go to church for years. I couldn’t stand people talking about things they “know” when I know they don’t know that at all. And then there are the ones that make promises they have no business making – as in “I promise you if you pray about this….” So, yeah, it could be said the reason I didn’t go to church was becuase I cared too much and there is no doubt that greatest part of my healing was being able to let go (not that I’m totally healed, mind you). But letting go of things I believed so resolutely was not easy. Today I don’t care if Joseph Smith was a prophet or if the BoM is true, or if the church is true (and frankly I don’t even know what that really means) – but I do still care that Jesus is the Christ, that I know good people at church who would do almost anything for someone else, and that at it’s core the church espouses those two things. Nothing else really matters (and I spoke very similar words in a stake conference not long ago).
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