- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I recognize a few people here from the NOM forum, as I have been reading posts extensively on both sites. I seem to have been more drawn to the NOM forum because I see so much of myself in what is being expressed there. However, in many ways I think it is also fueling my bitterness and frustration. Unlike many of you here at StayLDS, I really don’t WANT to stay in the church, but I feel like I MUST because of my family. I am beginning to recognize that if I am really committed to staying (even for the short term) I need to get over my attitude problem and start making a real effort to make the church work in my life. This is particularly difficult right now, as I have just recently left serving (hiding) in the Primary for many years, to accept a calling in yw. I now find myself rolling my eyes in Sunday school and squirming in discomfort over the lesson material.
I am not sure how to get over my negative attitude. I know the church is never going to be the same for me anymore, but I have to find some way of making it work to keep the peace at home.
I already have some regrets about accepting the calling in yw, as I did it with the understanding between myself and the bishop that I would work my way back to a temple recommend (I have always kept all the standards, but feel like I would have to be dishonest about what I believe), but I truly feel like I NEVER want to set foot inside a temple ever again. Sigh.
So, despite the fact that many of you here seem to be in a better place spiritually than me (I am basically an agnostic), I think this forum is probably the better fit for me. You are so positive here. Hopefully some of it will rub off on me.
Asha, Yes, the difference between the NOM forums and these forums is very nuanced. Indeed, Dathon at NOM pointed out that the original intent of the NOM forums was much like our intent here. If we could be successful in nudging this forum in the right direction, it might be by acknowledging the part of your message that recognizes there might be a higher cosmic purpose in your Staying LDS.
I think it’s natural that at times we don’t want to Stay LDS, just as at times we don’t want to get up in the morning or go to sleep at night. But we can believe that, by approaching it properly, it will be good for the collective human consciousness in what it does to us spiritually as well as what it does for the church. Rising to the occasion in an inwardly willing way is, I think, a noble aim. Aiming to realize all the implications of my signature line is, I think, a good thing.
Now, about the temple. Like you, it has been at times hard for me to want to be there. But I understand that I must be nuanced enough to appreciate it as I recently appreciated silently visiting a Catholic Chapel. Even if I conscientiously feel Heaven would not have me normally spend an excessive amount of my time there (opportunity cost), I can appreciate it as a worship experience with my loved ones.
Welcome, asha, welcome. I think you will do just fine here.
Hi Asha, One thought I had was that your opportunity to serve in YW may be a good opportunity, if you feel you want to change an attitude.
Serving the youth is a great way to feel good, which I’m sure you know as you accepted the calling.
One thing I tried to do in YM was to watch the youth in the class, and if I was rolling my eyes at some things being taught, these youth are pretty smart and at times they seemed to be zoning out or also rolling eyes. I tried to break the monotony of sunday school speech with interjecting a thought or personal experience to keep things down to earth and real for the youth.
After I was released from YM, I still look at which young men I notice aren’t at church as much anymore and still visit them at their home, not because I’m called to, but because I want them to know people care.
I guess I’m thinking there are ways, as Elder Oaks put it, to serve others and that helps us feel happier. Its not hypocritical to love the youth even if we have our own thoughts on many points of church doctrine. They don’t have to know we don’t agree with some things, they just need to know we love them. That is what I believe Christ would want me to do.
Just a thought from my experience. I hope that came off in the right tone. I don’t have all the answers, I just know there is something about working with the youth that energizes my spirit, and many times I feel I’d rather be in YM or primary than in High Priests Group.
Heber13 wrote:Its not hypocritical to love the youth even if we have our own thoughts on many points of church doctrine. They don’t have to know we don’t agree with some things, they just need to know we love them. That is what I believe Christ would want me to do.
I have a question. (This is a threadjack.) Is it wrong to be sincerely and earnestly and gently subversive? Is it wrong to ask questions when the eyes are rolling? I need better perspective on this, because I believe strongly the church needs to be ever growing and evolving toward a higher, better way and correcting its tradition continually toward the highest we can collectively co-create.
Tom Haws wrote:Is it wrong to be sincerely and earnestly and gently subversive? Is it wrong to ask questions when the eyes are rolling?
I think for me it depends on the audience, but maybe that is because I am a bit of a coward. For example, this past Sunday evening I attended a youth fireside where the leader talked about the evils of same-sex marriage and about how the youth need to be engaged in the battle against it on an ongoing basis. I was gritting my teeth, and at one point had my head in my hands wondering if I could just get up and walk out, but decided I couldn’t just leave because two of my kids were in the room somewhere too.
I really felt that I couldn’t speak up about how I felt because I worried that I was the only one in the room who felt as I did, i.e. that the church should stay out of politics, not dictate to non-members how to live their lives, respect the law of the land since gay marriage is legal where we live, the inherent irony in members of the church persecuting people for what they view as sexual deviance considering the church’s polygamous history (especially considering polygamy was illegal) etc, etc.. Afterwards I did start to regret not speaking up, but I was so sure it would have turned into such a confrontation.
As it turns out, I did have one ally in the room: my daughter (13 years old). We talked about it later and she told me that next time she feels that uncomfortable in a fireside she is getting up and walking out. I was impressed with her resistance to being so easily influenced by something that felt so wrong to her… so maybe some good did come of the evening after all.
I have felt the same way in Sunday school and Relief Society… where I often feel as though I am the only person in the room who feels the way that I do. Sometimes I hear people say things about the church that I know for a fact are historically inaccurate, but I can’t see how putting in my two cents would not be received very negatively by everyone else in the room. I have gotten good at suppressing what I am thinking. I sit there with a serene look on my face while I am silently screaming inside.
Yes, I accepted the calling in yw because I love those girls and I want to serve them and be there for them. However, I also suspect I will have less of a filter when teaching them than I would elsewhere in the church. I want them to each find their own spiritual path and learn to think for themselves, instead of just being told what to think by their leaders. I am still going to have to bite my tongue a lot, but I know they already appreciate my honesty, and a few of them have told me that they love how they feel that they can say anything to me. (I guess when I look at it that way maybe I am not doing such a good job of preparing them for sunday school and RS!)
I would be very interested in hearing about situations where you have been successful at being “gently subversive”.
There is a WONDERFUL thread over on BCC about teaching the youth that posted yesterday and still is actively receiving comments. Margaret Young is a registered, liberal Democrat who co-produced the amazing film, “Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons” with Darius Gray, the founder of the Genesis Group for Black Mormons. Her husband was just called as Bishop of their ward, and she has been called to teach the 16-17 year old class. She asked for advice, and the thread is fascinating. You really ought to read it: “Teaching the Youth” –
http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/04/22/teaching-the-youth/ asha wrote:I would be very interested in hearing about situations where you have been successful at being “gently subversive”.
Just to clarify, I would suggest times in YM class that were successful were not times I was “correcting” the teacher who was presenting something I didn’t agree with (i.e. “You will never find happiness if you marry outside the temple”-things like that make me cringe), nor time for me to become controversial in a class setting intended to benefit young impressionable spirits, nor a time to dig into topics for my own benefit and stimulation.
But when the youth seem to be zoning out or rolling their eyes, it has been successful for me to offer a personal story that can bring the lesson back to where I think it should be (not to more controversial subjects). It also helps me.
My example was when they were teaching the YM to be missionaries now in school and invite their friends to come to church or pass a copy of the Book of Mormon to their friends, the lesson seemed to be getting so cookie cutter where they’ve all heard this before.
I was thinking in my head, “blah blah blah – this is boring” , so I jumped in to share with the youth an example of when i was on the high school basketball team, I was a missionary by never swearing, and my team members would joke and kid me about my “shucks” and “darnits” – but they remembered me for that. Years later, missionaried knocked on a door of my old school mate, older, married, and with a family, and he let them because he said he remembered me way back in high school. You can be a missionary by example was my point and it seemed to resonate with the YM.
I could have sat and stewed about boring teachers, but thought how I could help the youth and enhance the class. They kind of like adults who are down to earth and real with them.
Old-Timer wrote:There is a WONDERFUL thread over on BCC about teaching the youth that posted yesterday and still is actively receiving comments.
I don’t know. I guess I am just very sober by nature. That thread seems to take far too lightly the entire trust of teaching the young adults. I totally agree with Heber13 about not “correcting” the teacher or the speaker. But when it’s our turn to comment, teach, or share, I think we have a serious obligation growing out of love to do some careful Socratic inquiry with the kids. At 17 and 18, they want more serious treatment, and they feel patronized when we think we can improve the situation with treats, shade trees, and better stories. Let’s hear them and ask them questions after the model of Jesus in the temple at age 12. Let’s feed them fewer answers and instead feed their thought processing ability.
Tom, I agree – and there are lots of comments that say basically what you said. I just think we can’t read to them and preach at them; they HAVE to be involved. I need to get past my negitive attitude as well! I’ve had somewhat of a big attitude problem my whole life .. This situation makes me seem bitter and coldhearted at times .. But I promise I really am not-coldhearted anyway. I hope we can help each other 
Welcome asha! I’m glad you found us and hope you enjoy your time here. It sounds like you have a desire to gain more positive energy regarding the church, in my mind that is the seed – it is the first step of effecting positive change. Nourish that seed and let it grow within you. I have walked in the same shoes, it takes time and effort but it does get better. Hang in there!
I love the book “Making Peace” by Eugene England. It’s several essays that he wrote over the years and there are a couple really good ones for this very objective. You can pick up on bits and pieces of his “mature” faith along the way, and it becomes apparent how he loved to exemplify and follow the teachings of Jesus.
Ray, I’m with you, brother. Asha, these forums really are helping me to have a more positive spirit about me without losing any of that honesty that is so dear. And Stages of Faith is also helping. There’s nothing like good examples.
@asha Don’t feel alone. I’m new to this forum and am in exactly the same boat as you. I don’t really want to be a member of the church anymore, I never want to go to the temple again, at this point I simply refuse to pay tithing (I’ll pay to other things), and generally I resent the church and its leaders currently.
I have not been to NOM but I understood before I came here the nuance between the two. I do not want to have anger and frustration in my heart. However, I must say, a lot of what I hear here so far sounds a lot like excuses to stay in the church. I don’t fault anyone for that, and I recognize this is probably more a reflection on me, than it is everyone else. But I’m hopeful that with enough of the good thoughts about the church from this forum, I will be able to salvage whatever is left of the foundation that has literally been ripped out from under my life.
jmb275, As gently as I can say this, work on charity. The title of this post says it well. What you dismiss right now as “excuses” generally are the result of years of maturing and growing and recognizing all things aren’t as black-and-white as many people believe. They are deeply reasoned, gained through great effort and dedication. They aren’t “excuses”; they have become core, foundational principles.
I believe the heart has to change before the head can change. Also, at the most fundamental level, I don’t want to hold others to a standard that would condemn me. That’s worth considering relative to this post.
jmb275 wrote:I do not want to have anger and frustration in my heart. However, I must say, a lot of what I hear here so far sounds a lot like excuses to stay in the church. I don’t fault anyone for that, and I recognize this is probably more a reflection on me, than it is everyone else. …
jmb, I get you brother – I’ve been exactly where you are. You should know that where you are right now is where you need to be before you can take the next step. You can’t skip it. I remember clearly all the thoughts you are currently having – it all looks like excuses and rationalizations. I remember the days thinking about the possibility of “returning” to the church and I just couldn’t grasp it – I couldn’t see how it could happen with honesty.
All I can say is keep journeying, keep putting one foot in front of the other. The sun will rise before you realize it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.