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I’d like to share a chilling poem. It was written by a young man who died in the trenches in WWI. Quote:Parable of the Old Man and the Young
So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
Wilfred Owen
Sorry, new here and reviewing older threads. I really like the the thought of Abraham failing the test…resonated with me especially in light of my recent viewing of the movie “Noah”.
However, it seems that the Abrahamic Covenant is based on Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son. Any thoughts about how he could have ‘failed’ but still received such a great promise?
It doesn’t specifically say he received the promise because he passed the test, only because he was willing to not hold anything back from the Lord. So perhaps he would have been blessed either way and the lesson for us is that as long as we are doing what we think is best we will be blessed?
-SunbeltRed
Quote:However, it seems that the Abrahamic Covenant is based on Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son.
Setting aside completely the question of whether or not the story is historically accurate to any degree, that certainly is the message that the writers wanted to convey, and it is a very powerful one for many, many people. However, just to consider, that same Abraham argued with / reasoned with / challenged the Lord / whatever when the Lord said he was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah – and he wasn’t chastised one bit for those actions. Maybe he learned his lesson with the incident with Isaac.
Quote:Any thoughts about how he could have ‘failed’ but still received such a great promise?
1) It is a mythological story, so the promise was a given no matter what.
2) There was no way for him, personally, to escape his upbringing and culture, so he was blessed for what he was able to offer – his willingness to follow what he perceived to be the will of God, even if he was mistaken. The key, in that scenario, wasn’t that he was willing to sacrifice his son; rather, it was that he was willing to do what he thought was right and what he thought God wanted – and he was open to being corrected and stopped before he could go through with it. In other words, maybe he was blessed for having an open heart and being willing to admit he was wrong in the end.
This is all speculation, but we do have “as far as it is translated correctly” to use as a way out of literal interpretations we don’t like. It’s liberating, and I apply the same principle to all scriptures.
I like the interpretation that he failed the test too — but still got some reward for trying to do the right thing. It’s consistent with the concept of a merciful God. Ray, Great comments!
So up until a few weeks ago I didn’t feel the freedom to say to myself that the story of Abraham might only be metaphorical. Whenever I heard that we would have to face our own Abrahamic test I would always think “I’m screwed, my faith is not that strong”.
I was kind of asking my question because I started really liking the idea of making a comment at church about maybe Abraham failed the test (as it seems to come up a lot). I think it would be innocuous enough to not take away from anyone else but perhaps cause a bit of a stir. And was trying to think about how to respond to the Orthodox response which would be, why did he get the promise he did.
Appreciate the thoughts.
-SunbeltRed
Fwiw, if I were to mention that in a class at church, since it is so ingrained into the perspectives of most members, I might say that I have a friend who sees Abraham failing the FIRST test (seeing whether or not he had moved beyond sacrificing children like his ancestors had) but passing the SECOND test (seeing if he would do what he firmly believed God had commanded) – and being rewarded for following the higher law, so to speak. I also might compare it to Adam in the Garden of Eden (without mentioning at the time that I see that story as completely mythological and a parable), when he “disobeyed” one commandment in order to “obey” a different commandment. I might say that I like the fact that both stories seem to illustrate how messy life can be – that there isn’t always “one true answer” or “one true action” in real life and that each and every one of us, therefore, ultimately has to “worship God according to the dictates of (our) own conscience”.
Love it! Glad we have people like you in our church!
-SunbeltRed
Everything seems to have a Jewish flavor today. 😆 I saw several posts that labeled the A Test as ‘arrogant’. I agree that it would be so if I were to use it on you. I just don’t think we can use the same descriptor for God. God actually did create the universe. God actually does know everything. God really is God and is beyond arrogance. As for ‘how dare He ask such an evil of Abraham?’, we asked the exact same thing of Him and he sacrificed His Son for us. Now, Abraham didn’t actually have to follow through but he probably got a glimpse of the anguish such a sacrifice would bring. And he got an allegorical insight into the life and mission of the Christ (and so did we, through him).
And my understanding of the concept of an Abrahamic Sacrifice is that it requires of us to be willing to sacrifice everything, be it material, emotional, or spiritual, to God. It’s designed to show us the limits of what we are willing to do, and then remove those limits. That’s a dangerous thing in any man’s hands, but not so dangerous in God’s hands. I trust Him, and so did Abraham and so did Isaac (he was about 30 years old and would have had to help his aged father accomplish the sacrifice).
That certainly is a legitimate view. I simply am not as confident in the use of “actually” when it comes to the Old Testament, especially.
Maybe the old testament stories are just myths? Much like Greeks and Romans adopted? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Interesting tidbit I learned today: the Abrahamic test has been discussed so long and so thoroughly that it even has a name in Hebrew–The “Akedah” cwald wrote:Maybe the old testament stories are just myths? Much like Greeks and Romans adopted?
Yes. Perhaps some are based loosely on true events, but modified extensively over thousands of years of retelling to convey some message. In this case, that message seems to be: do ANYTHING God commands without questioning, no matter what, and you will be rewarded. Maybe this is why Abraham doesn’t question God in this case (but does elsewhere as Ray pointed out): it would detract from the underlying theme of unquestioning obedience.
I have a hard time applying this story to myself in that light. I don’t agree with the idea of unquestioning obedience, especially since the “voice of the Lord” we are supposed to obey is delivered through fallible men. Even though I highly doubt the story was intended to be seen as a “failed test,” I connect more with that message.
turinturambar wrote:I’ve thought about this a lot over the years. I have concluded that the classic “Abrahamic Test” is bad theology. God is straightforward. He doesn’t mess with us, set us up, move the goalposts, or test our loyalty with cruel manufactured scenarios. It is not in His character to deceive. What you see is what you get.
I realize this is not orthodox Mormon theology. So what. We aren’t in Auschwitz and this isn’t Sophie’s Choice. I won’t accept this crappy theology for one more second.
Of course you are free to think of God how you want. My own suspicion is that neither you or I know what God is. He’s that far beyond us. “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” – Isaiah 55I have no idea if the Abraham & Isaac story happened the way the Bible describes it. But I do know God tests people and he often asks us to do stuff we never imagined. For example, Nephi being told to kill Laban in the Book of Mormon.
shoshin wrote:turinturambar wrote:I’ve thought about this a lot over the years. I have concluded that the classic “Abrahamic Test” is bad theology. God is straightforward. He doesn’t mess with us, set us up, move the goalposts, or test our loyalty with cruel manufactured scenarios. It is not in His character to deceive. What you see is what you get.
I realize this is not orthodox Mormon theology. So what. We aren’t in Auschwitz and this isn’t Sophie’s Choice. I won’t accept this crappy theology for one more second.
Of course you are free to think of God how you want. My own suspicion is that neither you or I know what God is. He’s that far beyond us. “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” – Isaiah 55I have no idea if the Abraham & Isaac story happened the way the Bible describes it. But I do know God tests people and he often asks us to do stuff we never imagined. For example, Nephi being told to kill Laban in the Book of Mormon.
I think the story of Nephi and Laban may all be a myth as well. I think most of the OT stories are “parables” and that Jesus taught in the OT the same way he taught in the NT. It would follow that the BoM would then likely be the same. Frankly, I don’t think I would have been willing to do what either Abraham (or Isaac) or Nephi were “commanded” to do and I think most of us wouldn’t.
Earlier in this thread we went through the whole idea of whether God tests people or not and why or why not. I think it’ would be good for you to review the thread because you “know” no such thing (although you are free to believe all you want).
I have really enjoyed reading these comments. Personally, I always thought this story sounded like someone having a psychotic episode.
I always wondered if Isaac ever was able to trust his father again. Being tied up and almost killed would make most people a little afraid of that parent in the future.
The take away of the story, “Run Isaac Run”
Why do we even teach this?
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