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Earl, welcome. Be careful how you pick your fight. The Church & a lot of have long memories.
Think it through carefully before you act. (fwiw)
I do what I can in my circle of influence. We don’t do dissident gathering here – at least not for any kind of public fight. If you want a place to vent but work on ways to stay LDS despite the issues, welcome. If you want us to join you in some kind of public dissent, this is not the place.
Old-Timer wrote:I do what I can in my circle of influence.
We don’t do dissident gathering here – at least not for any kind of public fight. If you want a place to vent but work on ways to stay LDS despite the issues, welcome. If you want us to join you in some kind of public dissent, this is not the place.
Although I’ll have plenty of venting to do, I can’t in good conscience stick to just that. Anything short of making an effort to fight the policy change seems to be tacit approval of it. The church provides no way for homosexuals to enjoy the blessings the rest of us enjoy (unless you count marrying someone you’re not physically attracted to) and I have a huge problem with that.
I don’t wanna cause trouble if this space isn’t intended for the conversation I’m trying to have. I’m going to do something though.
earl2bad wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I do what I can in my circle of influence.
We don’t do dissident gathering here – at least not for any kind of public fight. If you want a place to vent but work on ways to stay LDS despite the issues, welcome. If you want us to join you in some kind of public dissent, this is not the place.
Although I’ll have plenty of venting to do, I can’t in good conscience stick to just that. Anything short of making an effort to fight the policy change seems to be tacit approval of it. The church provides no way for homosexuals to enjoy the blessings the rest of us enjoy (unless you count marrying someone you’re not physically attracted to) and I have a huge problem with that.
I don’t wanna cause trouble if this space isn’t intended for the conversation I’m trying to have. I’m going to do something though.
We can and do have conversations here about the policy, and many of us are opposed to it. This place is intended to have conversations to help people StayLDS. It is not a place to to encourage open rebellion against church authorities (local or general), or for disrespecting those authorities, or for staging the kinds of actions the Ordain Women take (or at least used to take). Expressing dissatisfaction in a faithful and respectful way is one thing, encouraging doing things that might put a another member in danger of church discipline is another thing all together. There are sites more in tune with those sorts of things so if that’s what you want to do perhaps you might visit those. (PM me if you want a couple suggested sites).
You are welcome to do what you want and even post it here, you are responsible for your own actions. What I do is much more like what Ray does. If someone in my ward wants to talk about it I do. I will speak up in meetings sometimes. As an example, one time one of our old high priests said women will never receive the priesthood, to which I replied that the church once said that about Blacks as well and we don’t hear current church leaders saying they never will. Some members here have gone to gay pride or Affirmation events in Utah and their leadership is fine with that. People here have undoubtedly written letters to GAs, and have spoken with their bishops and stake presidents about the policy.
Let’s be perfectly clear where the line is: if you are going to try to incite or recruit people to do things that may be seen by the leadership as making them unworthy of their current calling, unworthy of a temple recommend, or as apostates you may be banned.
After reading through this thread I feel compelled to put my 2 cents in probably more for myself than anyone else. I have kept this to myself since the policy came into affect, I want to say that I oppose it publicly . I feel that Christ was able to accept everyone and if this is Christs church we should be able to accept all as well. I am not going to try and stir things up but from now on I will have to say my peace. Saying my peace includes church meetings , we all have our opinions and if we feel strongly opposed to something we should at the very least (as I am suggesting) state our opinion. I don’t know if I am right or wrong but I have strong feelings about this policy and at the same time we must remain respectful . We should never follow blindly that would be a mistake as it has been to much of the world in the past questions and stating a particular view on something should be ok . Just my 2 cents !!! ( I feel better) I like the reminder that I am not doing enough. However, the more I think about the policy the angrier I get. That doesn’t seem to help anybody, although I probably will give it a few more tries because I can’t help it. Then, I think about what good would it do to go against the church. I could hold a demonstration in front of my church building. I could probably get my wife and a few work colleagues to join in. I see two major issues with this:
1. I could get excommunicated.
2. The church, especially the members, thrive on being attacked. It would strengthen their resolve that the policy is inspired of God.
:problem: Gay members would not be better off in anyway, and I would lose everything I’m trying to hold on to.
I am left to wonder about how I can help. The best way I see it, is that I need to show love and support for people who are affected directly by the policy. I have done a terrible job at helping, mostly because I don’t know anyone who lives around me who is affected. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to reach out to those people who need our help, or know of a thread that would tell me?
DarkJedi wrote:earl2bad wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I do what I can in my circle of influence.
We don’t do dissident gathering here – at least not for any kind of public fight. If you want a place to vent but work on ways to stay LDS despite the issues, welcome. If you want us to join you in some kind of public dissent, this is not the place.
Although I’ll have plenty of venting to do, I can’t in good conscience stick to just that. Anything short of making an effort to fight the policy change seems to be tacit approval of it. The church provides no way for homosexuals to enjoy the blessings the rest of us enjoy (unless you count marrying someone you’re not physically attracted to) and I have a huge problem with that.
I don’t wanna cause trouble if this space isn’t intended for the conversation I’m trying to have. I’m going to do something though.
We can and do have conversations here about the policy, and many of us are opposed to it. This place is intended to have conversations to help people StayLDS. It is not a place to to encourage open rebellion against church authorities (local or general), or for disrespecting those authorities, or for staging the kinds of actions the Ordain Women take (or at least used to take). Expressing dissatisfaction in a faithful and respectful way is one thing, encouraging doing things that might put a another member in danger of church discipline is another thing all together. There are sites more in tune with those sorts of things so if that’s what you want to do perhaps you might visit those. (PM me if you want a couple suggested sites).
You are welcome to do what you want and even post it here, you are responsible for your own actions. What I do is much more like what Ray does. If someone in my ward wants to talk about it I do. I will speak up in meetings sometimes. As an example, one time one of our old high priests said women will never receive the priesthood, to which I replied that the church once said that about Blacks as well and we don’t hear current church leaders saying they never will. Some members here have gone to gay pride or Affirmation events in Utah and their leadership is fine with that. People here have undoubtedly written letters to GAs, and have spoken with their bishops and stake presidents about the policy.
Let’s be perfectly clear where the line is: if you are going to try to incite or recruit people to do things that may be seen by the leadership as making them unworthy of their current calling, unworthy of a temple recommend, or as apostates you may be banned.
How else do we express dissatisfaction in a faithful and respectful way? My ecclesiastical leaders and congregation know how I feel. I’ve shared my feelings in Sunday School and from the pulpit and I have still managed to renew my temple recommend. I’ve written the first presidency, I wear black and a rainbow tie to church every Sunday, and I’ve joined other forums where these things are discussed. What lack I yet? I’m out of patience as the policies affecting homosexuals have been around for years and people are killing themselves and leaving the church because of it. I’m out of empathy for those sustaining the policies because they’re the ones with the power and they’re the ones unaffected by these policies. I need more than these methods. What else is being done within these parameters and what else can be done to bring attention to this issue?
I think you are better off comforting people affected by the new policy than fighting it. In this case, it’s kind of like the guy that puts a bomb around his neck and says “unless you change the policy, I’m going to detonate”. It will only hurt your standing in the organization and will change very little. Comforting and being sympathetic to the people affected by the policy is much more impactful than fighting — you can’t beat city hall. I do believe it’s somewhat impactful to voice your opinion online, though. When a lot of people feel the same way, the leadership (at least, some of them) appear to be listening. Although this policy seems to come from a deeply held belief from the Brethren, I think the biggest impact you can have is making comments about why the policy is not good, how it violates many of our own principles, etcetera, encourage discussion about the policy, and describing how it makes you feel and act. Such as — not as likely to share the gospel, feel forlorn at church, don’t feel proud of the church, share stories about people who suffer because of the policy (including straight church members with gay relatives, and gay relatives too).
I just speak up. And it’s hard. It’s hard to be in the comfort of my tribe, my in-group, my friends and family and actually open my mouth and say it – the thing that makes the ground under us shake and shift. Tone of voice, eye contact and kindness are important. But once it’s out of my mouth, I have to accept the fact that our relationship could change. I aim to be kind and appropriate and unafraid.
That’s all I have the courage for right now. If interviews are structured differently by the time mine rolls around, there may be more decisions to make then.
earl2bad wrote:How else do we express dissatisfaction in a faithful and respectful way? My ecclesiastical leaders and congregation know how I feel. I’ve shared my feelings in Sunday School and from the pulpit and I have still managed to renew my temple recommend. I’ve written the first presidency, I wear black and a rainbow tie to church every Sunday, and I’ve joined other forums where these things are discussed. What lack I yet? I’m out of patience as the policies affecting homosexuals have been around for years and people are killing themselves and leaving the church because of it. I’m out of empathy for those sustaining the policies because they’re the ones with the power and they’re the ones unaffected by these policies. I need more than these methods. What else is being done within these parameters and what else can be done to bring attention to this issue?
Seems like you got it covered. I don’t believe we have anything more for you that fits the purpose of our site and stays within the bounds of not being suspected of apostasy.
Welcome Earl2Bad, For my own self, I try to dance a delicate balance between being myself/different and trying to stay as part of the community. All communities have rules and norms. I can only go about bending so many of them before I will find myself unwelcome.
I am not an agitator by nature. Sometimes I see movies of people who were so driven for a cause/principle that it consumed their entire life. Sometimes these people do create great change and are vindicated by history – but what is the cost in the interim? Am I willing to sacrifice my relationships with the community and family? Maybe – maybe not.
I focus on staying in the community. If I get kicked out then my voice isn’t heard anymore.
That is why StayLDS is the perfect fit for me.
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