I will probably be the "kooky" member…

[Anonymous]

rachael wrote:

Why do I feel like a bit kooky? With some of the rational, scientifically minded Mormons I’m too literal and “Cleon Skousen-esque”. (I did like the 1000 yrs series tho some of his postulations seemed far fetched.) I don’t believe in all the concepts of the theory of evolution (like that life spontaneously began in a primordial soup that evolved to higher forms) nor a young earth either. I don’t really know where people (some mormons included) get the young earth theory by reading Genesis. It simply says that God divided some waters and dry land appeared. He never says ” let there be” either one. It was already there. Maybe for eons.

I do not think it is anti-evolution to disbelieve what science has yet to prove. Even Sir Richard Dawkins acknowledges the lack of evidence for life starting spontaneously in the primordial soup.

rachael wrote:

Yet being anti-evolution, I think science is extremely exciting and I think that perhaps the different quantum theories will bring rationality to religion someday. I really like the concept of super-string theory. It explains how if you were in the 10th dimension you could have god-like power. No linear time exists (like event horizon of a black hole) so you could have all eternity to answer a prayer while innumerable prayers are being sent at once on our linear realm. The whole “Eternal round” alpha-omega thing. Also, if one was in that dimension they would be bigger than the universe and could hold all of creation in their hand. Sounds very Pearl of Great Price-y. And a bit kabbalah-ish.

As I ponder my own mortality, I do find some hope in the universe of possibilities in super-string and other theories in the realm of theoretical physics. The mathematics do point to whole other realities beyond our everyday four dimensions. There is nothing kooky about using your imagination as to what that all might mean to us.

Welcome.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Stan!

And i apologize for taking your “Why did God give men the PH?” thread in a much different direction than you intended.

[Anonymous]

Welcome rachael…glad you joined and shared some of your story for us to learn from you.

Glad you’re here!

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow wrote:

And I’ve tossed out my white shirts, manuals, garments, etc. I’ve found that the most satisfying way to live the gospel, is to focus on the basic gospel doctrines as presented by Jesus Christ, and not on all of the random do’s and don’ts that have nothing to do with our salvation. That’s where I’ve found my own personal place for now…

Thanks for this. I’m genuinely curious, though, about how you can do all of this if you seriously doubt or no longer believe in the foundational truth claims (First Vision, BofM mainly)? Does it not grate on you to still attend when basic gospel doctrines are very often taught through those access points?

What you said in response to Rachael resonated with me completely. I’m in the same boat. I want to go back sometimes just because I miss worshiping with my family and it’s my “spiritual language”, but I’m having a hard time even conceiving that to be a possibility when I 99% doubt those aforementioned truth claims.

I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anachron wrote:

Holy Cow wrote:

And I’ve tossed out my white shirts, manuals, garments, etc. I’ve found that the most satisfying way to live the gospel, is to focus on the basic gospel doctrines as presented by Jesus Christ, and not on all of the random do’s and don’ts that have nothing to do with our salvation. That’s where I’ve found my own personal place for now…

Thanks for this. I’m genuinely curious, though, about how you can do all of this if you seriously doubt or no longer believe in the foundational truth claims (First Vision, BofM mainly)? Does it not grate on you to still attend when basic gospel doctrines are very often taught through those access points?

What you said in response to Rachael resonated with me completely. I’m in the same boat. I want to go back sometimes just because I miss worshiping with my family and it’s my “spiritual language”, but I’m having a hard time even conceiving that to be a possibility when I 99% doubt those aforementioned truth claims.

I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

I won’t answer for Holy Cow, but I will say that he is not unusual here and I share some of his views. So here’s my answer to your questions:

Yes, it does grate, and it’s exactly why I didn’t go to church for several years. However, since I have returned to church (a little less than a year ago) I have learned to put my own filters in place. While I don’t necessarily buy into all of the truth claims of the church (for example I believe the Book of Mormon is a good book and contains truth, but I do not believe it is what the church claims it is) I do buy that the church teaches the core truths of the gospel – Jesus is the Christ, love your neighbor, etc. Since the Book of Mormon is for the most part in harmony with the Bible, I am not bothered when those things in harmony are taught from the Book of Mormon (although I generally use the Bible reference when I teach/speak).

What worked for me going back – and I contemplated going back for months before I actually did it – was separating the gospel from the church. I’m not trying to convey that the church is evil, it is not evil. The people at church, most of whom I like and enjoy being around, are sincerely good people. I have found that I can follow the 11th Article of Faith and let them worship how and what they may, even while sitting next to me. Fact is, I don’t know anyone else’s mind or heart and I don’t know what they are actually thinking while taking the sacrament or listening to a talk or testimony – and it doesn’t matter because I know what I am thinking and feeling (mostly thinking, I have an issue with feeling – but I do feel). These people are on the same path of discovery I am on, we’re all in it together – and at the same time we’re all alone.

[Anonymous]

I’ll add my opinion too…while anxiously waiting to hear from our good friend Holy Cow…

It can grate on me from time to time, and I allow myself to skip when I feel I need to. But in all honesty…after years of reflection and learning the root of the tensions or stress…I honestly believe the issue was me. I had incorrect expectations of the truthfulness of the church, or I interpreted what was said in a certain way…and those ways could not be sustained.

I can’t find a way to go back to how I saw things before. Only forward.

And now I see that I can be comfortable. It doesn’t grate on me. I try to understand others, not focus on if they are right or wrong, but what is important for them and what is important for me.

I am comfortable teaching HPG now using speech and language I know will be best accepted by those in class. The same topics, 1st vision, BOM, etc…all can be expressed in deeper meaning than just whether God told Joseph everything to do or say. But it took me time to let go of my black and white thinking to be comfortable sitting with others that see it how I saw it before.

I find the solution was working on myself and how I process things.

[Anonymous]

It doesn’t grate on me, usually, since I’ve been working on being my own unique person in a group from which I’m different in significant ways for 40 years (since I first recognized my unique view around age 7-. Sometimes, someone will say something that still grates (at all levels), but I have come to love people regardless of what they say or believe (almost always). There are times when things are said that are so abhorrent to me that I simply must add my own commentary – but those times are quite rare AND my commentary doesn’t have to be harsh, confrontational or even obviously corrective in the vast majority of cases. I can’t hope to influence people if they cringe every time I open my mouth. I can’t be the exact same person I don’t like to hear speak – just at the other end of the spectrum. Do unto others and all that jazz.

One thing that helps tremendously is that I am quite orthoprax – meaning I live the observable life of a traditional member. I don’t drink, smoke, walk around shirtless, wear a cross (although I have no problem with that one at all), tell explicit sexual jokes or stories, skip church regularly, etc. I help clean the church, pass the sacrament when asked, volunteer to play the piano when needed, sing in the choir, wear a white shirt to church more often than not, contribute positive comments in class, call and let the Bishop know I’m coming in advance of moves, attend the temple, help with moving people into and out of the ward, smile a lot at church, flirt with the older widows, avoid being an obnoxious jerk, bare my testimony (using my own phrasing), etc. I might not see lots of things the same way as many people around me at church, but I participate actively in the community and genuinely love people.

Love conquers a lot.

[Author]

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