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I go to church every week for the most part. I teach the HP quorum once a month, but I am telling you it is getting difficult. Not because I disagree with so much, I figure everyone has the right to believe as they will. The real thing that is bugging me is I can not ask any real questions. I want discussion, I want to get contrasting opinions, I want something else other than the confirmation bias I get each week. I want to ask a question that challenges our doctrine or belief structure and gets some analysis and thoughts from others. I do not want to tear down the faith of others I just want to see if they are thinking beyond the correlated material, if they have any spark of inquiry. Mostly I want to hear why they believe the way they do, their fears, their passions, their beliefs. I want this mental stimulation but I fear of any real inquiry at church. We can only ask and answer questions that will confirm the established bias we already posses. I feel there is so little left there for me at church but I go to be with my daughter and keep up appearances I guess. For some reason I keep hoping that something will change and a real discussion will erupt.
I ask those types of questions all the time. I just don’t do it in any kind of a challenging way. One of my favorite approaches is totally honest, so I use it fairly regularly. I simply say something like:
Quote:You all know I participate regularly in online discussion groups about the Church and the Gospel. (or – You know I like to think about all kinds of things.) Someone I respect greatly once said / asked (or – I read the following once),
“(Fill in the blank.”)I was really struck by that, since it made me think, and I wondered how best to respond. What do you all think? I rarely have had any negative reaction whatsoever when it is obvious I’m not trying to convert anyone to a different viewpoint and when I’m asking them for help in answering / responding to someone / understanding more fully.
Cadence, I am totally with you brother. Blogging and StayLDS fills a need for me that I can’t find at church. Frankly, blogging has made church more tolerable to me. I hope we can help when you want to ask challenging questions. Old-Timer wrote:I ask those types of questions all the time. I just don’t do it in any kind of a challenging way.
One of my favorite approaches is totally honest, so I use it fairly regularly. I simply say something like:
Quote:You all know I participate regularly in online discussion groups about the Church and the Gospel. (or – You know I like to think about all kinds of things.) Someone I respect greatly once said / asked (or – I read the following once),
“(Fill in the blank.”)I was really struck by that, since it made me think, and I wondered how best to respond. What do you all think? I rarely have had any negative reaction whatsoever when it is obvious I’m not trying to convert anyone to a different viewpoint and when I’m asking them for help in answering / responding to someone / understanding more fully.
Ray, sometimes I think you are going to a completely different church than me. I think you must have a much more enlightened ward than I do. If I mentioned the internet in HP I would be sent to the bishops office.
Honestly I do ask questions at times but I have to be so selective that it seems unfair that they get to spout all the same crap they have been regurgitating for years like it is some kind of new thought, when some like me have to sit there and keep our thoughts mostly to ourselves.
I think maybe I will suggest a class for the questioners like my self. We could all meet in a room and ask any question we want without anyone thinking we were apostates (but then I am an apostate I guess). We would have no set lesson just a subject we were going to discuss and let it rip. Really it would be great to go to such a class where anything goes as long as it was respectful and civil. We could even have a moderator to enforce the ground rules. I bet you it would quickly become the most popular class on Sunday.
mormonheretic wrote:Cadence, I am totally with you brother. Blogging and StayLDS fills a need for me that I can’t find at church. Frankly, blogging has made church more tolerable to me. I hope we can help when you want to ask challenging questions.
I would like to read your blog
Cadence, I was very happy to find that the LDS definition of apostasy as found in the Church handbook applies only if you belong to a group that is actively fighting the church or if you join another church. The handbook says that you can even attend other churches or be completely inactive and not be called an apostate.
It seems to me that if you are teaching HP you are probably not an apostate;) And I don’t think that asking questions counts as fighting the church.
Cadence wrote:I feel there is so little left there for me at church but I go to be with my daughter and keep up appearances I guess.
I don’t want to be too blunt but…
You may have answered your own question. If you’re there to “keep up appearances” then you probably aren’t going to be asking those tough questions. I’m not advocating starting faith-shattering discussion, but I think it would be fascinating to be the one who starts to stir the pot. I think you’re giving everyone at church a little too much credit. For many, it’s not that they’re just regurgitating, it’s that they really don’t care. So, you shaking it up a bit could be really interesting. If you do, I’d love to hear the results…
I don’t ask those questions at Church — it just raises eyebrows. And its frustrating because the question becomes a magnet for Standard Mormon Answers. Instead, I post them here. mormonheretic wrote:Cadence, I am totally with you brother. Blogging and StayLDS fills a need for me that I can’t find at church. Frankly, blogging has made church more tolerable to me. I hope we can help when you want to ask challenging questions.
Cadence, I was sitting in HPG yesterday thinking the exact same things, and I feel much like MH in my experience. In my class, the scriptures that were referenced, and the comments made were all to reaffirm faith in those that were giving answers, and to me was a bit narrow minded in the comments. It is what makes me feel I am left wanting more at the end of each block of meetings every Sunday. I have tried opening my heart and making myself give effort and sincerely seek love and the spirit in meetings so I don’t turn critical of others…but after many months…I still feel I am left unfulfilled at church.That is why I have a need to come back here and interact with all of you. It gets me thinking and takes care of that need I have, but then I can return to church to continue to interact with others who are different than I am, and learn to love them for who they are, and I do admire those in my ward who set good examples for me and remind me how happy the church makes so many people. I still find value in parts of the church experience, so I continue to go with my family also.
I made a couple comments in class yesterday, usually when I feel the point about God’s love for all His children, not just His “chosen few” is a useful comment. However, for much of the meetings, my greatest comfort was a good book I was reading throughout church.
I think there is a balance. We can participate and point out some differing views that aren’t really against church doctrine…just a stretch into thinking about what things really mean a little deeper, and I think there are others in the room that would think and appreciate those views as well (and many that don’t). I think that can be of value to the ward, without necessarily having an agenda to try to change anyone else…just make it meaningful to each of us…since its our church too, right?
I’d suggest, that when you’ve built up enough social credit in the ward or quorum, test the waters…throw a couple comments or points out there and see how those in your ward respond. It may not be as bad as you think.
Quote:I think maybe I will suggest a class for the questioners like my self. We could all meet in a room and ask any question we want without anyone thinking we were apostates (but then I am an apostate I guess). We would have no set lesson just a subject we were going to discuss and let it rip. Really it would be great to go to such a class where anything goes as long as it was respectful and civil. We could even have a moderator to enforce the ground rules. I bet you it would quickly become the most popular class on Sunday.
In my ward, this used to be the gospel essentials class. Currently I participate in a weekly class in which we discuss recent movies, eat snacks, and speculate about ward changes as people move in & out of the ward. It’s called Nursery.
Personally, I find that I can make questioning comments much more easily if I show up every week, sign up for things on the sign ups, and do my callings. I consider it part of the membership fee to be able to ask what I want. I have, for example, pointed out to a doctor in our ward (who was teaching the RS lesson that day) that it strains credulity to think Ammon can cut off all those arms in the middle of a field and not one of them died. We’re talking arteries, people. And 52 arms being severed. Sounds to me like the story was at least . . . exaggerated.
I believe that there are tricks that you can use. Firstly, you know what’s coming in church services, so you can plan ahead. (From the manual, if nothing else.)
Secondly, because you can plan ahead, you can word things so that they challenge people without offending them or making them think that they’re straying into heresy.
Without wishing to sound patronizing (!), I believe you’d be capable of that and are clever enough to do that. You know that you aren’t out to corrupt people, but to broaden their minds, which is something entirely different.
I don’t know that I have ever commented here at StayLDS before but I can empathize with this topic. I used to feel pretty uncomfortable in GD or HPG etc. with some of the lessons and obvious lack of depth and ability to challenge certain ideas. One Sunday a truck driving couple was visiting our ward and said some pretty obnoxious things in GD that I know offended most of the people in there but most people just kept quiet. Then in HPG the husband went off on another rant that included some borderline racist remarks – I either had to confront the guy or walk out – so I decided to walk out. In talking to many in the Bishopric and HPG after that many expressed the same feelings I had.
In order for Church to be a fulfilling place for me I decided to try and carefully start introducing topics and confronting certain issues as they came up. As useful an outlet as the internet can be I also started building a club of gospel friends, some active and some not, with whom I know I can vent about certain topics with.
So far in HPG I confront any statement that demeans or ridicules anyone’s faith, religion or spiritual practice i.e characterizing rosary prayers, muslim prayers, or hindu/buddhist chanting as “vain repetition”. I have also challenged whether women could or will ever hold the priesthood.
Yesterday during my lesson I raised the question of whether or not 1 Corinthians 10:13 and Alma 13:28 are true just the way they are read, or whether 2 Nephi 25:23 may mean that we can be tempted beyond what we can bear, but are saved by grace after all we can do. I then mentioned how difficult the feelings of SSA must be to overcome and live with (without inviting discussion on it).
You might be surprised how many people are willing to explore certain issues.
If you read a lot of Joseph’s diaries and histories there is frequent mention of quorums having debates over various gospel topics and Joseph would then comment on which side of the argument seemed correct to him. Although we very much view our doctrine and theology “settled” there is room to broaden our discussion.
Church is not the appropriate outlet for all issues, but you might be able to expand things more than you think. As has been mentioned before though I have pretty solid relationships of respect with my HPG, Bishopric and Stake leaders etc. so I know where I stand and it is more comfortable for me to nudge things at the edges.
If you know your comments won’t be well received then that is a hard place to be and I think everyone on this board knows how lonely an isolated one can feel at church.
Quote:So far in HPG I confront any statement that demeans or ridicules anyone’s faith, religion or spiritual practice i.e characterizing rosary prayers, muslim prayers, or hindu/buddhist chanting as “vain repetition”
Hmm… sometimes they can become vain repetition if they are done without thought. In all the cases you mention
Yes SamBee that is just the point I made actually. Repetition itself is not the indicator for something being vain, but rather the spirit and intent of the prayer in the first place. Both repetitious or non-repetitious prayers can be in vain. The reason I confronted the issue was because the teacher was ridiculing the practice as if the repetitious prayers themselves proved something about other peoples spirituality relative to our own. I bring up at least one loaded question in about half the classes I attend. I usually make it a soft pitch, easy to hit, and let people come up with their own answers … but it is always challenging. I usually even say that: “I know this is a bit of a challenging question, but ____” For example, in SS on Sunday, they were talking about the story of Elijah meeting the widow and asking her for food and water, from her last bit of meal and oil. Elijah also brought her dead son back to life (because she had been faithful).
The whole class was headed in the direction of framing the story in terms of having enough faith and obedience to make miracles happen for us. The idea forming in the room was that Lord would always save us, even though it might be at the last minute (to test our faith), if we were obedient and prayed hard enough (had enough faith).
So I raised my hand and asked “I know this is a bit of a challenging question, but what do we tell the parents whose child dies, or the people who starve to death. That is happening many times a minute all over the world. What do we tell those people who prayed for a miracle, and no miracle came? Do we tell them they should have prayed harder, or they should have been more obedient?”
Fortunately, the teacher really likes me. He just smiled in response to me grinning at him, and tossed the question right back out to the class — “Good question, what should we tell people who have lost a child?” That got the room pumping with some energy and some real thought. I just sat there silent after my question, not arguing with any of the various answers.
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