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hawkgrrrl wrote:
I have, for example, pointed out to a doctor in our ward (who was teaching the RS lesson that day) that it strains credulity to think Ammon can cut off all those arms in the middle of a field and not one of them died. We’re talking arteries, people. And 52 arms being severed. Sounds to me like the story was at least . . . exaggerated.
Yes! I was excited to Read in Michael Ash’s book (“Shaken Faith…” published by FAIR) the admission that scriptural stories often ARE exaggerations! It was a cultural thing as he puts it. The numbers of warriors fighting for example often should be considered enormous exaggerations.
Unsure Footing wrote:Yes SamBee that is just the point I made actually. Repetition itself is not the indicator for something being vain, but rather the spirit and intent of the prayer in the first place. Both repetitious or non-repetitious prayers can be in vain. The reason I confronted the issue was because the teacher was ridiculing the practice as if the repetitious prayers themselves proved something about other peoples spirituality relative to our own.
I was at a talk in a mosque where a Catholic priest turned Muslim talked about how wonderful it was that people said “insh’allah” (god willing) all the time in Muslim countries. I took him up on it, saying that it had just become a part of speech, much like “God willing” in English, or even Good Bye (God be with ye), which are fairly meaningless. I said that even “pbuh” can become meaningless when appended to Muhammad’s name all the time. He didn’t know what I meant really.
I totally get your point and agree that things said too often lose their power. But I sort of liked the concept behind “Inshallah.” They say it after a declarative type statement to indicated that God is really in control of what happens, as a form of humility (at least that is the ideal, as I understand it). So I would not say “I will post a great response in this thread,” because that presumes arrogantly that I am in control of the world and can decide what will happen.
Inshallah (if God decides to will it), I will write a response.
Have you considered a book club? I had one at my house for three years while I was in grad school. We were all LDS grad students; the women in the ward already had a book group–so, by default it was just guys. (We didn’t want to read the Secret Life of Bees, Bridges of Madison County, or Harry Potter–condescending grin goes here.) We started from the classics, but near the end we were reading mostly contemporary. We stuck with fiction–even though some of our fiction was based in history: The Jungle, War and Peace, Native Son, Devil in the White City, etc. Brady Udall’s The Miracle Life of Edgar Mintwas a pleasant surprise, as was The Backslider–two great examples of well crafted, LDS fiction. We met once a month. During months with exams, we would opt for something lighter–or as was more often the case–shorter, like King Learor Hamlet. We got together the first Friday of each month, usually for 3 to 4 hours. We would take turns choosing titles, and reserved the right to veto–rarely exercised I might add. Each time at least one person would bring refreshments–usually several. Our group size fluctuated between 8 and 15. With guys at the law, business, medical and divinity schools–our conversations were always stimulating and often provocative. Labels applied at the beginning of the first year–such as liberal, conservative, progressive, intellectual–pretty much faded into the background. Granted my context in Hyde Park, Chicago is not ANYWHERE usa, but I think getting a small group of folks together to do something similar on regular basis is easy enough and might help feed your healthy need for intellectual intimacy.
Be well.
Nathan
Nathan’s got something there. The only question is whether you want it to be LDS or not. If not LDS they are actually quite a few options in big cities. I must disagree about Harry Potter though, I put off reading it for years. It was a really pleasant surprise and JK’s books are better than many adult novels.
Yep. I went to a church activity Saturday night and listened to members criticize the Jehovah Witness church for about 30 minutes, and then spent priesthood meeting teaching a class about the priesthood and apostasy. It was horrible. By the end of the class, a couple HP had everyone convinced that anyone who does not attend church on a regular basis is in “apostasy.” I was appalled. No lie folks – I kind of feel like Spock – sometimes when I read your comments, especially Ray’s, i wonder if we even belong to the same church! Ray, you must be one hell of good politician and speaker to get away with what you do, because I don’t think I could ever get away with in my branch/stake. FYI – After listening to the church leadership criticize the JW on Saturday night, stating that they “tear families apart,” I finally got up and told them that I’m certain many non mormons say the EXACT same thing about us, and then I walked out. It was quiet, and contentious, and the spirit was NOT in that room. Awful weekend for me and my spiritual growth.
But I am so glad you said something. i feel that if the Church is to go forward, and become better, more sensitive, more compassionate, more useful, WE have to say something. We have to call out a Bishop when he is being a jerk. We need to tell a Stake President that he is over the line in our opinion. We don’t need to be rebellious, or discourteous, but on the other hand, I don’t think anything is served by just biting your tongue and suffering in silence. Just my two coppers.
Exactly! It can be a true act of love to tell someone when you think they are wrong. How else does somebody grow and become a better person, indeed even a better leader, if never questioned? There’s a big difference between questioning a leader to tear them down and undermine order, and questioning them in love as a supporter.
I think you were very brave CWALD! Do something like that and stay in the room next time instead of walking out. Just give it a try and see what happens? I bet that is even more effective. At least for me, it almost always turns out pretty good, and it brings in a whole new fresh spirit to the room. There are often others in the room feeling the same way, needing someone to stand up and bring in some critical questioning. It is very healthy for us as individuals and as groups.
oh yeah, I really do think church experience is highly local and variable. It definitely swings through ranges of diversity and tolerance. It just is what it is.
One comment I use frequently to divert negative comments about other faiths is to say something like, “Given the increasing hostility and suspicion of religion in society generally I really feel like all people of faith need to unite and do good based on what we have in common rather than to be hostile and divided based on our differences.” That usually brings forward some good discussion and dampens some of the more extreme inter-faith bashing.
Even saying something like “Don’t you think this discussion is a little harsh? I personally am struggling to feel the spirit or feel very uplifted by the direction we are going.” The antagonists may take some offense to such a comment, but I second the idea that we all have an obligation to express when we don’t feel right about certain ideas. And everyone, including ourselves, needs to be humble enough to be corrected.
I know many people, including my father, who just bit their tongue for so long on certain issues that it became a complete barrier to even going to church or progressing spiritually even outside of church.
One of the best responses I know, but one which has to be used carefully (and probably not in Utah or other places in the Inter-Mountain West) and said very gently and with a grin, is: Quote:If I wanted to go to church to hear people bad-mouth other religions, I’d attend the Southern Baptist church in town and listen to them say things like that about us horrible Mormons. I don’t come to church to act like a Southern Baptist.
I know that’s not entirely in line with the spirit of the post (since it’s a direct slam about another religion), but it’s true to my experiences living in the Deep South – and it shames many adult converts like just about nothing else could.
Old-Timer wrote:One of the best responses I know, but one which has to be used carefully (and probably not in Utah or other places in the Inter-Mountain West)
and said very gently and with a grin, is: Quote:If I wanted to go to church to hear people bad-mouth other religions, I’d attend the Southern Baptist church in town and listen to them say things like that about us horrible Mormons. I don’t come to church to act like a Southern Baptist.
I know that’s not entirely in line with the spirit of the post (since it’s a direct slam about another religion), but it’s true to my experiences living in the Deep South – and it shames many adult converts like just about nothing else could.
Very good – I like it.
😈 Zadok wrote:But I am so glad you said something. i feel that if the Church is to go forward, and become better, more sensitive, more compassionate, more useful, WE have to say something. We have to call out a Bishop when he is being a jerk. We need to tell a Stake President that he is over the line in our opinion. We don’t need to be rebellious, or discourteous, but on the other hand, I don’t think anything is served by just biting your tongue and suffering in silence.
Just my two coppers.
Every time I teach the high priest there are roughly 35 men there. Of those there are the same 5 who will always comment and then it is the party line always. I am starting to wonder how many of the silent ones are just indifferent or keep quite because they have learned to bite their tongue. Whatever the reason it becomes difficult at times to have an honest discussion because the 5 always repeat the dogma over and over no matter how I pose the question. I wish more people would speak up and not worry if the were wrong or are going to offend. An uber TBM never worries about offending when they are commenting.
Piccolos are the highest pitched, shrillest instruments – and I think that’s probably why Elder Wirthlin chose them to use as the example of the instrument doesn’t just value. It’s important to have piccolos in the orchestra if you want the full range of sounds, since nothing else emits that particular sound, but it’s just as important to hear the other instruments playing. The fullness of the Gospel isn’t understood, imo, unless all the instruments are playing together and in tune – and I see “unity” as a fullness of harmonic sound, not just everyone playing the same melody. I’ve heard the full harmony played in a ward in which I lived, and it’s a gorgeous sound.
Cadence wrote:I wish more people would speak up and not worry if the were wrong or are going to offend.
That’s an interesting statement, Cadence. I wonder how many times at church we think the strict party-line comments are the thoughts everyone else is thinking, when usually what happens is if we are thinking something…chances are others are too.In one example, our bishop challenged our ward to read the BOM as a family in one year. Everyone was challenged to do it. It was a good thing. Many people stood and bore their testimony at the end of the year that they finished it as a family and it blessed their lives. I stood and bore my testimony that we weren’t able to finish it, but it still blessed our lives for trying. I had so many people afterwards come up to me and thank me for sharing that, there were a lot of families that weren’t able to and they felt guilty about it. It was refreshing to hear someone else that didn’t finish it still mention it was ok to not be perfect. I just think having differing testimonies helps reach more people, than everyone sharing the same message, and others quietly feeling they don’t fit in.
Ray is right, the orchestra needs all sounds to be more enriching, not just ones we think are standard.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the HP Group teacher I have welcomes the comments like you do, Cadence. But perhaps I should test that out a little and confirm my perception?
😈 Me, I’m probably at the back, playing the triangle, cowbell, and those dangly wind chime things. I think a lot of it comes down to diplomacy. I was at a meeting of a bunch of atheists, and one guy couldn’t understand why people were so hostile to him, when he tried to debunk urban legends, or “friend of a friend” stories. However, I quickly picked up, it was the WAY he was going about it. He had a point, but if you come over as a killjoy or a misery guts, or a smart ….. well, no one’s going to like you for it.
The same goes here. You’ve probably all got good points, and I know you do from what I’ve read here, but there’s a way of going about it. It’s not always a good idea to just dive in and confront, because people will switch off and hate you for it. (Although there are a few occasions where that may be necessary)
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