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Bruce in Montana wrote:
May we all become as little children again.
I think that’s a requirement…
Oh.my.goodness.
Did we all just find a common ground?????????
Just another thought along the lines of 8-year olds *knowing*…. When the baptism of fire occurs both in the outer form and the inner fulfillment, simultaneously, this is called a “rare initiation”.
I have known people to have this experience, beyond just myself. I have also known of people who (and it seems, this is much more common) received the fulfillment years (or even decades) after the outer ordinance. I also know of at least one person who received the inner fulfillment *before* the outward ordinance. This is pertinent to the OP and children testifying, I think.
It appears that it occurs in God’s own time.
HiJolly
Bruce in Montana wrote:Holy mackerel….I’m starting to sound like you guys and I’m the resident fundamentalist.
😆
:: sinister laugh :: Our plan is working perfectly!!
I’m totally kidding Bruce, we like you just the way you are!!
Little children know. Oh, yes, they know. They can’t speak, but they know. It’s good they not be up at the podium unless they can walk on their own and say their piece in their own words. But they delight me and always have. They are the real deal. Tom
Well, I agree with so many comments here. I have never liked the “I know” stuff coming from kids (or trite sentiments from adults for that matter), but I qualify that by saying that I have felt the spirit when a child was expressing something genuine. And I am sure I knew things as a child as I perceived certain parts of life. Parents are taught to teach their children how to bare a testimony and I think instead of really teaching the concept, people teach their children as if it were the same thing as saying the pledge of allegiance. My testimony feels like it is undergoing a giant renovation. So, I find it hard to testify of anything formally right now. I sit in the meetings and I don’t feel that I could get the words out. So, I just enjoy what I can from them. I feel so separate from the group.. like I am sitting outside the glass watching. And that is so different than it used to be. I used to feel that I could give a meaningful and doctrinally sound and spiritually sincere offering at the pulpit. I used to look forward to talking about how God had answered my prayers or how I had seen the scriptures apply meaningfully in my life. This feels a little strange to me because at the same time I feel testimony burning inside of me in various places. It is just that I am somewhat disjointed at the moment I guess. So, I keep my mouth shut.
I wanted to comment on the thread started by Tom that was diverted to this thread. I appreciate what Tom said about the “I know” habit in LDS culture but I can’t go all the way with him to that place where we as humans can’t know anything. There are things I do know. Some of them very simple… like fire is hot. Yes there is faith and yes faith isn’t to have a perfect knowledge. But faith is to live in a place of assurance and it does bring levels of knowing even until faith becomes dormant. I have practiced faithful movements in my life and seen amazing results. So I do have a foundation of “knowing” to stand on as I make my next step forward. And there are things I just “know” for no other reason than I perceived them. I can’t explain it or prove it. Maybe folks out there would just say I am blinded by delusion. But I can’t deny what I know either. I don’t think that makes me arrogant if I share with you that I know something. And saying that I know something doesn’t make my knowledge on that subject complete…as most wisdom comes thru a process anyway. I think it is ok to say that you know something…..even if that something is that you know you don’t know.
Way to go Poppyseed! I know I felt the Spirit when I read your post. I know how the Scriptures make me feel when I try to understand them and believe them.
I know how I feel when I go toward God with a sincere heart and I know when I have finally broken through my shell to make real contact with him.
I know when I have had the spirit at church, even Fast and Testimony meeting and there are a billion kids repeating the same thing.
I know that God is included in my marriage.
I know that God is in my life because I have seen the change in me compared to what I used to be.
To me this is all very real and I am glad. Sometimes it can be very hard, demanding and painful, but I thank God for the experience of this life.
a fairy tale. And yet I love a fairy tale, always have, since they were read to me as a child. After all, they reflect a way of teaching, they usually have a strong moral message, and normally they offer a happy ending. I read fairy tales to my grandchildren & they are delighted with the same. Is there any reality in fairy tales? Sometimes I think (or hope) so. But perhaps their greatest value is in reading/sharing, the natural quest for enlightenment which follows reading. May they always endure, the church and the fairy tale… jmb275 wrote:I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is ______________ . I know Joseph Smith was ____________. I know that President Monson is _________________. I know that Jesus Christ ______________. I know that God is ______________. I say these things…
I’d like to bear my testimony. I know this Church is what what works for me personally. It’s what I
wantto believe. To me, it makes sense of those things which to other Christian denominations are simply “mysteries.” I know Joseph Smith was either (1) one inconceivably brilliant con-man or (2) inspired of God. I tend to go with option 2. I know that President Monson is a good man, with a good sense of humor and a strong commitment to what he believes. Maybe he’s even a prophet. He’s also just a human being, and thus fallible. I know that Jesus Christ is someone whose life I don’t appreciate enough. Even though it is beyond my ability to really comprehend His love as possible (even for a God), I can’t imagine rejecting Him. Maybe that’s fear speaking, but if He really is who He claimed to be, I can’t imagine having to stand before Him one day in the distant future and say, “Oh my gosh! You really did die for me? Uh… I’m really sorry I didn’t take you more seriously.” I know that God is real. I have seriously tried imagining that He doesn’t exist, and I absolutely cannot do it. He answers my prayers. I do know that. It has just happened too many times for me to say, “It was just a coincidence.” Katzpur wrote:
I’d like to bear my testimony. I know this Church is what what works for me personally. It’s what Iwantto believe. To me, it makes sense of those things which to other Christian denominations are simply “mysteries.” I know Joseph Smith was either (1) one inconceivably brilliant con-man or (2) inspired of God. I tend to go with option 2. I know that President Monson is a good man, with a good sense of humor and a strong commitment to what he believes. Maybe he’s even a prophet. He’s also just a human being, and thus fallible. I know that Jesus Christ is someone whose life I don’t appreciate enough. Even though it is beyond my ability to really comprehend His love as possible (even for a God), I can’t imagine rejecting Him. Maybe that’s fear speaking, but if He really is who He claimed to be, I can’t imagine having to stand before Him one day in the distant future and say, “Oh my gosh! You really did die for me? Uh… I’m really sorry I didn’t take you more seriously.” I know that God is real. I have seriously tried imagining that He doesn’t exist, and I absolutely cannot do it. He answers my prayers. I do know that. It has just happened too many times for me to say, “It was just a coincidence.”
Beautiful, Katzpur! My choice to believe is my own. When I realized that, it was a powerful moment.HiJolly
I was reading the other thread on how children and adults alike use the phrase “I know” – which is often puzzling. I just think that confidence is a big part of faith, and so we try to gain confidence and like to have confidence in what we believe in, which is why doubt can be a negative if left alone with no action behind it.
I’m sure you’ve heard this taught in the church often:
Quote:We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
-Dallin OaksDoes that make sense to us? We can KNOW by saying we know? I think it can if the Spirit of God bears a witness that what I said was true, and after feeling that, I have greater confidence in it…but that is a very non-scientific way to prove something, isn’t it?
Testimonies are interesting things.
Notice that the quote does NOT say we gain knowledge by saying we know. HiJolly wrote:Maybe children don’t know, maybe they can’t analyze. But when I was eight years old, I was filled with living fire from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, when my Dad said “receive the Holy Ghost”.
And I *knew*.
I previously said that kids don’t know and can’t know. For the most part, I think that’s true. I listened to a little boy bear his testimony once, though, and I knew that he knew something I didn’t know. It was clearly evident to me that he wasn’t just saying something he figured he was supposed to say. I do think he was a very, very rare exception, though.
Heber13 wrote:Does that make sense to us? We can KNOW by saying we know? I think it can if the Spirit of God bears a witness that what I said was true, and after feeling that, I have greater confidence in it…but that is a very non-scientific way to prove something, isn’t it?
I don’t know. To me, saying “I know” when I don’t know is dishonest. Bearing one’s testimony doesn’t have to include the statement, “I know the Church is true.” Sometimes I think we forget that, and maybe that’s not what Dallin Oaks was saying in the first place. I know that I could bear my testimony that I know that God hears and answers my prayers and feel 100% honest in saying that. Maybe I don’t know that, either, but I do feel that I do, so it’s not dishonest for me to say it. It would, however, be dishonest for me to say, “I know the Church is true.”
Katzpur wrote:Heber13 wrote:Does that make sense to us? We can KNOW by saying we know? I think it can if the Spirit of God bears a witness that what I said was true, and after feeling that, I have greater confidence in it…but that is a very non-scientific way to prove something, isn’t it?
I don’t know. To me, saying “I know” when I don’t know is dishonest. Bearing one’s testimony doesn’t have to include the statement, “I know the Church is true.” Sometimes I think we forget that, and maybe that’s not what Dallin Oaks was saying in the first place. I know that I could bear my testimony that I know that God hears and answers my prayers and feel 100% honest in saying that. Maybe I don’t know that, either, but I do feel that I do, so it’s not dishonest for me to say it. It would, however, be dishonest for me to say, “I know the Church is true.”
I don’t think it’s dishonest, because people that say that often feel that way. Just because they think they know doesn’t mean they do, but its semantics. How do people define “know”; a lot of people say it out of habit when they are really saying something like belief or confidence. Katzpur, what is the difference between saying you “know” things about God, and saying you know the Church is true? They are both claims of knowledge that are based off of faith, not evidence. They strike me as being in the same category.
Hmm. That is interesting. Statements of faith, I think are very powerful. Like “I am going to win that race!” And then they do! I have had experiences like that. Kinda like the words of faith precede and even create the reality of the circumstance. There is also those self fulfilling prophecies. Our thoughts are very powerful.
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