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I would like to talk with someone about classes or discussion groups where difficult topics could be discussed. Is this “a thing” in any of your wards/stakes? Any suggestions on who exactly I should talk with and how to start the conversation? If I want to start a home-based group, how would that go over? (In that case, I see it being a bookgroup format.) What are the possibilities if we’re talking Sunday School hour? Miller Eccles is one such group. They are in California and Texas.
From their website:
“We welcome differing viewpoints and aim to provide opportunities for honest inquiry and expression in an open, accepting environment of good fellowship. In such an atmosphere negativism and destructive criticism do not easily flourish. We seek to foster brother and sisterhood amid diversity.”
I have been to two of their meetings. The discussions were NOT controversial. I walked away feeling like it might as well have been another gospel doctrine meeting. They did go into meatier subjects, just didn’t delve into anything of real controversy.
But I only attended two .. The rest of their meetings could be real rippers.
Many years ago, while living in SLC, I was a member of a discussion group which met monthly in different members’ homes. SLC had a good number of thoughtful people who our well-connected group could call on for a presentation. The discussions were often heterodox though always respectful, like StayLDS and “meaty”. However, it was nothing that any Bishop would likely countenance in his building, and especially not competing in the same time slot as standard SS lessons. OTOH if the discussions lean closer to the orthodoxy, then Saturday or Sunday night firesides is the format you could follow. These both sound interesting, but not workable given my location. SS hour has alternatives to GD class already, and I wondered if the church has experimented with, I don’t know, some kind of “Gospel Questions” class.
I think the church would see such a class as too big of a threat. Gospel Essentials class for new members and investigators is the closest thing you are going to find. I just cannot imagine a ward sanctioning a class that allowed real and serious questions about doctrine and history. The talk is always about giving milk before meat. Then meat is never offered. Or if meat is offered, you are expected to just be grateful for a bite — and never question what kind of animal it came from, how it was prepared, or if the cook washed their hands.
Unfortunately, I really cannot see you having success at this, much less IN church. The expressions of the leaders is that our official meetings need to be “faith promoting” and that, as we know in this forum means to stick to what the church has released as it correlated material. I think many members are not ready for nuanced discussion of the gospel and people feel threatened by it, which saddens me personally. I wonder if over the decades as the younger crowd grows up, that the need for such a class won’t grow – I think it will. Just my two cents.
Any class that is either billed or even perceived as meat will attract everyone, ready or not. I think it’s the human condition to convince ourselves that we are ready for the meat, regardless of whether we really are. I’m just saying that if there were an additional SS class that people thought was more deep than their regular class everyone would end up attending and it would become another gospel doctrine class. I’d love for some sort of get together outside Sunday services where people can get together, I’ve heard of very few such meetings. I believe Bill Reel hosted one in Arizona?
People are already holding meetings to discuss what I’ll call “faith without filters” but they’re outside official channels of the church. It’s more along the lines of a book club or something. The concern there is what happens when (and let’s face it, this is a real possibility) a member hears about the group, doesn’t understand the group, tattles to their SP, and everyone is brought up on disciplinary charges for forming an apostate group… just for wanting to discuss the things that there should have been space to discuss in church meetings.
:crazy: There’s a gap, it would be nice for the church to provide some sort of official support, but one obstacle is that the culture associates far too much stigma with “doubters.” It’s a real need that everyone is afraid to address.
I agree — the way to approach this is outside of formal church channels. Nothing stops you from inviting people over for a discussion, or personal study. In fact, I think the Church Handbook specifies that controversial topics are for personal study. It is highly unlikely that leaders would permit this within church boundaries. We had a GD class that went a bit unorthodox, and it led to our Bishop going into the class and telling everyone to stick to the lesson manual. The SP’s wife was in the GD class, complained to him, and then our Bishop got it full barrel.
I comment. Seriously, that is my approach to making classes meatier. I think about the topic and how to frame my comments in a way that isn’t offensive to most traditional members. I have the advantage of over 40 years of learning how to do so without causing doctrinal fights, but it works most of the time now.
I have been wondering the same thing myself. I think it depends on your leaders. I was once invited to a book club by my bishop of all people to discuss crucible of doubt. The discussion was open and refreshing. But there’s no SS group. I really like the name “gospel questions.” I think a class covering the gospel topics essays or teaching from crucible of doubt would be great classes. For pure church history, mormonism in context is a great website that has lessons already set up with teaching materials. Good luck on this. I Plan on Talking to my bishop about this soon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The problem I have with a face to face discussion is the fallout with others afterwards. What if you get someone you think is unorthodox, but who is TBM there? Who might they tell? Next thing you know you are apostate to the local membership. Best to start discussions here, online with people you know won’t judge you or hurt your face to face relationships.
Ann wrote:SS hour has alternatives to GD class already, and I wondered if the church has experimented with, I don’t know, some kind of “Gospel Questions” class.
I haven’t heard of any successful attempts at this, because once you get into “meaty” discussions…you are starting to talk about various things that mean various things to different people…and lead to arguments. I put it up there with sex and politics…meaning…it is hard to talk openly about it in a classroom setting or group setting and not create problems when people have various (and valid) opinions on it.Correlated class material is kept at a simple level we all can agree on (and mostly agree it is boring after several years of the same old stuff).
Meaty discussions happen individually one on one as opportunities present themselves.
Attempts I have heard of people trying to do this (even with good intentions) end up offending people, who tell the bishops, who tell you to disband the group. Honestly, I think it is because there are some truths that seem to do harm and it is difficult to find everyone at a mature and open state to discuss it openly.
As SD said it well…
Quote:The problem I have with a face to face discussion is the fallout with others afterwards.
That doesn’t just happen with TBM-uber-orthodox people. It happens with anyone opinionated and unable to open their minds to allow others to share what they will.
It is what we try to keep safe here at this site…safe forum to share without turning argumentative or negative.
nibbler wrote:It’s more along the lines of a book club or something.
This is the only way I can imagine this working. Having a book club that reads and discusses certain books. It wouldn’t always need to be RSR and crucible of doubt or God who Weeps. You could alternate between those and lighter stuff. Then whoever leads the group would at least have the cover or support that these books are sold at deseret book by respected LDS authors. Even here it is possible for people to have significant disagreements. Hopefully the person leading the discussion is able to defuse these things and keep the meeting moving.
Thanks, everyone. If I decide to pursue anything I’ll return and report. I’m feeling very restless. It might be because I haven’t been in 2nd and 3rd hour on a regular basis for a year now because of my calling. I don’t get to comment, or have the moderating influence of fellow members on my ideas. I’m a little too alone with my thoughts. I thought the essays would make more of an impression than they have, that there would be discussions going on all about me. Instead, all’s quiet here. Ann: I talked to someone in the hall at church about the LDS.org essay on blacks and the priesthood. They assumed I was making stuff up. SMH.
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