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A rabbi friend of mine and I had a little discussion a while ago. He told me of a trip he made to Temple Square years ago and went to the North Visitor center. He went up the long ramp to the great Christus. After staring at the statue for a while a missionary came and asked him if he had any questions. He said “Who is depicted in this statue?” She said “why, this is our savior Jesus Christ”. “Really” he said “We Jews don’t make idols of our God”. In 1999 at tornado hit downtown Salt Lake City. The path of the tornado was quite interesting. But the only thing I want to mention is the fact that it hit Temple Square. The tornado broke the glass front of the Christus. As I analysed what had happened I figured that something was wrong that the Lord would send a tornado to give us a warning. Do any of you see the tornado dramatic sign from God that this is not correct? Or am I the only one here that can see this. Tornados rarely hit Utah and to have one hit Temple Square would be absolutely impossible if something wasn’t right.
I found a few scriptures that I find interesting that I’d like to share and get your input. Deut 4:10-20 I won’t quote the thing but basically Moses taught the children of Israel that since they never had seen God they therefore could not make an image of him. The 2nd commandment says you cannot make a graven image and this links back to what Moses was saying. This is forbidden under the 2nd commandment of God.
Ezekiel 8:3 – Ezekiel was taken to Jerusalem and shown the idol of Baal in the North Visitor center anciently. It is called the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Do you suppose that metaphorically Jeruasalem is Salt Lake City and Ezekiel was actually looking at the Christus too? Both the idol of Baal and the Christus are set up on the North of the Temple. I find that interesting.
All the Churches now and they are a veritable art gallery of abominable images of Christ. I can’t stand to go into the Church now. It was not that way when I was a kid. My family taught me back then that this was wrong. Why is it so right now?
In the middle ages at the time of the reformation in 1520’s in Switzerland Zwingli gave an inspiring sermon about idolatry. As a result of the sermon when the protestants took over the State owned Churches they destroyed all of their idols of Mary and Christ. Today you can’t find those images in those churches in Switzerland. They are far cleaner than our Church now. I long for the day when this will end. Does anybody else see this as a problem or an I out to lunch on this? Just curious.
Admin note: Both of your first two posts are, essentially, polemic in nature and wording – argument focused. That is not our mission or purpose here, so please be careful. We talk about controversial topics here, but we don’t argue about them in the classic sense of the term.Personal response:
Honestly, I think you are making mountains out of two molehills – the tornado and the Christus statue. I appreciate the Jewish stance on graven images, but I see the prohibition on avoiding worship of man-made gods and needing physical objects in order to worship – not being able to worship the unseen. I know that sounds like an invalid justification to those who are proponents of the letter of Old Testament law, but it’s how I feel about idolatry – and I have no qualms about seeing no idolatry in the existence of the Christus statue and painted images of Jesus. He was a man, even if we accept him as a God, and I don’t have a problem with visual images of the man – even if I believe most of them are inaccurate and culturally-influenced.
If there are deeper things that are keeping you out of church, I get it; if it’s these two things, I don’t – especially the tornado.
Okay – I’ve had a number of people tell me the same thing. I don’t see this as a mole hill because of the scriptures I’ve quoted as well as experiences. But appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Those other things you say are more important? – well – Not so much. Keeping the commandments is more than the things you mention. Isaiah, in one of his sermons says that idolatry causes the people to become insensitive. They alienate themselves from God. I’ve heard recently of people in the Church bowing down to their idols of Christ in their living room before family pray. This is a big thing with me and I can’t get past it. There are other things too and I’ll be going through quite a list with your qroup. Can you cite for me one scripture that supports your idea that this is not a big deal? Love to see one because I can’t find that this is acceptable. I can only find that it is not okay and when a people become steeped in idolatry the Lord finally destroys them which happened at 721 BC, 600BC and BofM times. Remember these were all members of the Church He was destroying. We warned over and over again in the scriptures that this will not be tolerated by God. I believe the Tornado was in fact sent as a warning. How can it not be? A tornado hitting temple square is not a warning from God? Makes absolutely no sense to me that members can pass this off as a natural phenomenon. This Church is Israel and the people of Ephraim and were lead to these valleys by the Hand of God. A tornado would never have hit temple square if it were not a problem.
Thanks for responding, but this will remain a problem with me as long as the scriptures tell me that this is an abomination in the sight of God.
Quote:Thanks for responding, but this will remain a problem with me as long as the scriptures tell me that this is an abomination in the sight of God.
Then this is not the right place for you – IF you intend to argue with people who disagree with you and not seek understanding from them. It’s that simple. We are about discussions that respect multiple viewpoints and that help people figure out how to stay LDS with a greater degree of peace based on building their own faith, even if that varies widely among us. That doesn’t appear to be what you want.
Please don’t go through your laundry list of issues, insisting that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It’s not what we do.
hmmm – maybe you are right. I had hoped that I could discuss these things with some members. I think I’ll leave then and simply remain inactive knowing that something is not correct and the Church is in a state of Apostasy. Please remove my membership in your forum because it’s obvious to me you don’t have any answers. We don’t have any answers you will accept – that are right for you.Those are two very, very different things – and I respect your right to take that stance. You need to do what is according to the dictates of your own conscience, whatever that is. I sincerely wish you well in your journey. May God bless you in the path you pursue, whatever that is.
Everyone, the general topic of idolatry is a good one for this forum. I certainly believe we have issues in the modern LDS Church with regard to idolatry. I am leaving this thread open so we can discuss it in a manner consistent with our mission. Art in whatever form serves different functions but in the case of religion it’s mainly to teach. In early times when people were illiterate it not only taught bible stories but it served to influence behavior by prompting reflection about our lives. I think it’s pretty much the same now along with our ability to use the written word. Idolatry implies magical thinking, that a object if treated in a certain way will bring a desired result. The Christus is a beautiful piece of art that reminds me of Christ’s mission and message. That’s all. I think the closest thing the LDS Church has to an “idol” is the Moroni statue that adorns all but eight temples. It is so prevalent on temples that several that didn’t previously have one have been retrofitted, including the temples in Idaho Falls, Provo, Sao Paulo, and Tokyo. However, I see this as more of a “branding” of LDS-ness. Toyota, for example, has a logo that they use on every car they make, but it was only introduced in 1989, to give them an easily-recognizable symbol. Mercedes had their logo long before… It’s been around for a century. If you think about it, the Mercedes logo looks sort of like a christrian cross and the now-well-known Toyota symbol looks vaguely like Moroni. In other words, the Moroni statue is less an idol to LDS people than it is an advertisement of the brand to the rest of the world… “here… this is an LDS temple!”
I don’t view either the Christus Statue or the collection of Angel Moroni Statues to be in the category of idols, because at no time are LDS people directed to or expected to pray to them, nor make any form of offering to them, nor even make any gesture towards them. With that it mind, as has been said, they are just art and architecture.
it54 wrote:Tornados rarely hit Utah and to have one hit Temple Square would be absolutely impossible if something wasn’t right.
I’ve heard that the Tornado missing the SLC Temple was evidence of his protection. I personally see great danger in attributing divine meaning to natural disasters.it54 wrote:I’ve heard recently of people in the Church bowing down to their idols of Christ in their living room before family pray. This is a big thing with me and I can’t get past it
I’ve never heard of this and it strikes me as very foreign to Mormonism. Now I have heard of some people having a prayer altar in their living room similar to what is found in the temple. That practice goes back to the days of BY but is considered very odd to most members today.Pres. Kimball compared putting anything before the will of God to be modern idolatry. I believe the easiest comparison for modern idolatry would be our affection for our “stuff” a.k.a. consumerism.
it54, many people, throughout the long history of mankind, have looked at coincidences as pointing toward deeper meaning. When Mormons camping in the wilderness after having been exiled from Jackson County in 1833, they witnessed a meteor shower, and took it as a sign from God. But it was a natural event. The same meteor shower occurs every November, and reaches its most intense part of the cycle every 33 years (November, 1833). It wasn’t a sign from God, it was just a natural occurrence, but the people took it as a sign and found encouragement in their hearts. The tornado you reference did not “hit Temple Square” as you put it. I’ve included a map of the event. The path of the tornado was over 4 miles long, and it brushed passed the NW corner of TS. The extreme northern boundary of TS was in the “Light Damage” band, and the remainder was unaffected, as you can see:
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/slc/climate/tornado_files/Tornpath.jpe The church suffered almost no noteworthy damage. The tornado bypassed the Church Office Building. It did go directly over the construction site for the Conference Center, but the only damage was in the form of toppled construction cranes, and construction was not delayed because of it. The church building closest to the tornado was the Church History Museum… If you must draw a conclusion, it would probably be more appropriate to assume God was displeased with the history of the church.
it54 wrote:Do any of you see the tornado dramatic sign from God?
I don’t.it54 wrote:Or am I the only one here that can see this?
You phrased this as though it is, in fact, a sign from God. You should probably say, “Or am I the only one here that see’s it this way?” Just because you see it a certain way, does not make it fact.I don’t put a lot of stock in OT doctrine. There’s a lot of good there, but it’s mixed in with a lot of weird.
In the specific case of idolatry, the concept is presented as opposition to religious norms of the day. Anytime an argument is based on opposition to something, it will take a position further away from what it opposes than is necessary for the general discussion. For example, Paul, in the NT, worked hard to get people away from check-box style faith based on observance of the Law of Moses. When you pay attention to what he was trying to do, his words make sense. When you don’t, you see his message as being that faith, alone, is the only thing that God cares about… but that wasn’t Pauls message at all. Had he not been so intent of refuting LofM adherence, he could have spent a lot less time on what God didn’t want us to do, and more time on what God DID expect. Sadly, the former dominates the dialog and has been the source of a lot of misunderstanding of Paul. Keep that in mind when reading OT passages about idolatry; everything you read was in opposition to the already-existing idolatry of the times, which was much different from having a statue in a visitors center or a painting of Jesus in the hallway outside the chapel.
Finally, you assert that this “idolatry” is some new happening in the church… I’ll simply point out the the Christus Statue has been in the Visitors Center in Temple Square since 1966.
Hi it54, Welcome to the forum. Can I suggest something? We’re not in this forum for a debate. This is a support community and you’ll not get a whole lot of traction here. Many of us don’t see the church as the “only true” and don’t take the scriptures literally. So you’ll probably be frustrated by our responses. If we respond at all.
Can I suggest two forums that would gladly debate some of these things:
http://www.mormondialogue.com – has a range of mormon apologists, less-active mormons, non-Mormons etc. Get to 25 posts in the social forum (try the 3-word story) and then start a new thread in General to discuss the church being in apostasy. Be respectful and be ready to provide lots of references and they will gladly engage your concerns.http://www.mormondiscussion.com is another option, though less ‘believing’ (it’s where the debaters who get kicked off the first board hang out!)Friends, I happened to be working directly across the street from Temple Square when that tornado hit – I saw the whole thing. The only buisness establishment that was damaged beyond repair was The Sun, as well-known gay and lesbian bar on the west side of Temple Square. I heard plenty of comments back then about how the Lord had spared the temple and destroyed The Sun as well as uprooting all of the trees in Memory Grove (another common spot for gay cruising). What I’m trying to point out here is that you can read almost anything you want into a natural phenomenon. Our new friend it54 may see the tornado as a sign of divine disapproval of the Christus statue since a window in the visitor’s center broke. Others see divine protection for the Church, since the temple and COB were spared any damage. Others see divine justice because a gay bar and cruising spot were destroyed. I remember that one man lost his life when the tent for the Boat and Outdoor show collapsed. I wonder what someone would say about his standing in God’s eyes, since he was killed in the tornado? The only way I’d be willing to accept a natural phenomenon as a sign of God’s disfavor is if the event is preceded by a prophetic warning — just like Lehi’s to those in Jerusalem. “Either repent, or the Lord’s gonna send a tornado and wipe out The Sun, the Church’s visitor’s center and Memory Grove!” Any post-hoc analysis is pure speculation, imho.
:angel: Although not really idolatry, I have always been bothered by the practice of many LDS placing framed portraits of the prophet and first presidency on their walls. It seems to me that this practice contributes to the false cultural idea that our leaders are infallible. I use these pictures in FHE and I respect our leaders, but don’t want to put their mugs up in my living room.
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