If it isn’t true, why bother?

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

George wrote:

We all miss it

I don’t know why, but I never really missed it. It was replaced by something much, much fuller, better, and more real. And I was given a sense of duty or mission to stick with the church and figure out how to fit again.

That’s really cool Tom. I wish I could relate better to this kind of thing. You’re an example to all of us!!

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

We really need a whole thread to talk about “True and Truth” – it comes up all the time in our discussions…

I just don’t know how to kick it off…but it would probably be worthwhile to understand definitions of those words and how we use them.

The other day, my son said, “I know Joseph Smith is true.” Bless his heart…I think I know what he is saying, but that isn’t really the right use of the word. I see this often in the church…those words aren’t really used correctly (according to what I think they mean).

Anyway, if anyone feels so inclined, a good study of those concepts would be….well, truly helpful.

I agree, but I suspect that we will come away with 100 different versions of what the words mean.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

For a stage 3 faith, “true” usually means applying a “factual” definition of truth to things that are more like principles.

This is something I’ve been trying to get across for a long time. If only I were as articulate!

[Anonymous]

“If only I were as articulate!”

We wouldn’t need hawkgrrrl – and her absence would be a bad thing – therefore, I am glad you aren’t as articulate. 😈

[Anonymous]

I’m going to throw this against the wall-

Truth to Mormons might be intentionally (psychologically) ephemeral. Joseph Smith knew how to conjure, yes conjure. One example, the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Why did they have to pray so hard, separate themselves, groan and sweat it out, and have Joseph Smith working so hard on them, separating them, etc., before they saw the angel and gold plates- and then, did they spiritually see this, or was it reality?

What is the one sin that is unpardonable to Mormons? Worse than murder? (when you answer that question then you dare not further question your faith or search outside certain confines for the truth, because it is unpardonably sinful.) See how psychologically and mentally inhibiting that is? What an ultimatum that is, if you don’t believe what the Church says, then you’re damned. And the Church can get away with this, because it gave you a gift.

Why have someone representing the spirit of truth in our religion? and in such a threatening manner? And why the spirit of truth? Why not just call this member of the Godhead the comforter? Why the“spirit” of truth? I’d rather have a comforter just comfort, not demand that this or that is true.

So, what I’d like to throw against the wall is this challenge. What if we considered giving back our gift of the Holy Ghost? But, in a polite way.

Yes, wrote letters saying, “I just wanted to return this gift, and try getting along with everything else in the Church but not this gift.” It would be hard, wouldn’t it?

I’m joking, but half way serious. And I know that you should esteem as deadly serious even the flippant suggestion to say such a thing. I would have to be unworthy of the gift to even suggest such a thing. Unworthy of truth- like the three witnesses, until they eventually agreed with Joseph Smith that they saw the angel and the plates.

[Anonymous]

Truth can be seen differently from different perspectives. I have been trying (unsuccessfully at times) to redesign my thinking away from the black and white mentality.

Is the church true? At times I do hope it is, but it doesn’t really matter to me anymore.

Have I ever wanted to leave the church? Absolutely.

So do you think you will someday? No, I don’t. I’m a Mormon. Even if I left the church I would still think of myself as a Mormon. So why would I leave then if I’m always going to be a Mormon? Besides, someone needs to sit in the back pew.

[Anonymous]

primarycolor wrote:

I’m joking, but half way serious. And I know that you should esteem as deadly serious even the flippant suggestion to say such a thing.

That is definitely unorthdox. Gets you to thinking. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed it.

[Anonymous]

primarycolor wrote:

Why have someone representing the spirit of truth in our religion? and in such a threatening manner? And why the spirit of truth? Why not just call this member of the Godhead the comforter? Why the”spirit” of truth? I’d rather have a comforter just comfort, not demand that this or that is true.

I still find the whole topic of “Truth” very interesting and does create problems for many people. Hawkgrrrl’s comment was spot on, that perhaps when we think of truth it is something that is factual instead of a principle or something more vague but is of value to bring us in line with God’s will or teachings, but not a physical, tangible “thing” that can be held or seen or tasted, but is a spiritual truth. It is like saying I like strawberries because they are true…that doesn’t make sense to me. Or it is like my son who will bear his testimony “Joseph Smith is true” doesn’t quite make sense, often at church we don’t understand what “true” means, but it is used all the time to try to reinforce our beliefs. Joseph is a true person, yes, but what we are really concerned with is did he see God or not and are the teachings true or a lie? And if there are questions with Joseph Smith’s life or actions…that presents a difficulty for some people who want a true prophet to be a perfect person, and fit their definition of what a prophet should be. “True” doesn’t mean it fits into our definitions of things.

That is why I was drawn to the StayLDS community. Perhaps there are doubts as to the church being “true” as I defined it as a TBM. But our options are to believe it is no worth and leave the church, or that it still has some good, and choose to stay even though we don’t understand it all or don’t like it all. Part of my doubts 5 months ago were problems with how I was interpreting things…despite what the outside reality was doing, I was mad and upset and expected answers to my prayers a certain way. Just because I wanted it that way doesn’t mean that is the way it should be. So I wondered if the whole church was a crock and I was willing to throw it all out. Instead, I hung in there, and by challenging my beliefs, I now think I see how I was looking at things narrow-minded. The oustide world or gospel or God didn’t change as I went through my journey…I just had to be open minded to let myself see things differently…as they really are, not how I wanted it to be.

So to answer the original question, “If it isn’t true, why bother?” – for me, while I’m spending time figuring out what I believe, I might as well stay and let my family continue to go to church and keep finding ways for me to enjoy the things about the church that I do like. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. It can be (IMO) I like this part, and just don’t know about that other stuff, and until I find something better, I’m a Mormon.

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