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jmb275 wrote:
I mean there’s tons of speculation on this website since we’re all searching for other interpretations.
Speculation is what makes the world go ’round. Who “speculated” that you could plant a seed and cultivate something? Who in the world “speculated” that a cow could be domesticated? Some heretic for sure!
Your quote on “fighting reality” struck me as well. I think it may be semantics, but the concept might more aptly be described as “transcending reality”. Of course, you could make the argument that an effort to “transcend reality” is pointless and worthless, and that may be true too. But, it’s kinda fun. As long as no one loses an eye.
I don’t claim to understand reality well enough to try to fight it. I’m convinced it would kick my butt every time. jmb275, thanks for the comments. It is nice to here people say they have been through similar belief transformations. I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Whether see eye to eye on everything isn’t so important–no, you haven’t offended me. Letting out my thoughts and getting intelligent responses is cathartic. That’s why I keep reading and writing here, because ultimately, it helps me feel better. Some of things I say may come out with some force, and that’s probably because most of the time, I’ve had to keeps these “rebellious” thoughts bottled up. I’m aware that there are many things I don’t know, and that many of you on this website have valuable insight that I can hopefully benefit from. spacious maze wrote:Most of us are probably here for that reason. I think it’s culture, not truth, that keeps people hanging on.
I’m not sure that is accurate. The things that keep us hanging on … are the things that keep us wanting to hang on. For me, I really have little attachment to the culture. My wife would be thrilled if I just gave up and left the Church. I am actually still here for the spiritual truths. I found myself still finding a lot of value in the spiritual aspects of the Mormon religious metaphor. I don’t believe in the literal truth of a lot of it now, but I still very much value the “truthiness” of it. I think that is a Hawkgrrrl word.
Valoel wrote:spacious maze wrote:Most of us are probably here for that reason. I think it’s culture, not truth, that keeps people hanging on.
I’m not sure that is accurate. The things that keep us hanging on … are the things that keep us wanting to hang on. For me, I really have little attachment to the culture. My wife would be thrilled if I just gave up and left the Church. I am actually still here for the spiritual truths. I found myself still finding a lot of value in the spiritual aspects of the Mormon religious metaphor. I don’t believe in the literal truth of a lot of it now, but I still very much value the “truthiness” of it. I think that is a Hawkgrrrl word.
I politely disagree. I would bet that a great majority of people stick with the religion of their families–especially is those families were devout. I’m sure there are some good studies out there. Whether it is Catholics, Southern Utah Polygamists, Mormons, or any other faith, it is extremely difficult to overcome the indoctrination. Maybe “cultural” is a bit vague or broad, people have a difficult shaking the beliefs they are raised with, religious or political. I earned my degree in Political Philosophy, and numerous studies show that a great majority of people stick with the political party of their parents. That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions–I’m one of them–but overall, statistically, its the norm, and I’d be willing to bet its the same way with religion. You say its the thing we want that keep hanging on, and at a subconscious level–and conscious–the things we want are things we’ve been taught/trained to want. Valoel, you may be exception, and there are certainly others, but I’m talking about a statistical majority.
wordsleuth23 wrote:Valoel wrote:spacious maze wrote:Most of us are probably here for that reason. I think it’s culture, not truth, that keeps people hanging on.
I’m not sure that is accurate. The things that keep us hanging on … are the things that keep us wanting to hang on. For me, I really have little attachment to the culture. My wife would be thrilled if I just gave up and left the Church. I am actually still here for the spiritual truths. I found myself still finding a lot of value in the spiritual aspects of the Mormon religious metaphor. I don’t believe in the literal truth of a lot of it now, but I still very much value the “truthiness” of it. I think that is a Hawkgrrrl word.
I politely disagree. I would bet that a great majority of people stick with the religion of their families–especially is those families were devout. I’m sure there are some good studies out there. Whether it is Catholics, Southern Utah Polygamists, Mormons, or any other faith, it is extremely difficult to overcome the indoctrination. Maybe “cultural” is a bit vague or broad, people have a difficult shaking the beliefs they are raised with, religious or political. I earned my degree in Political Philosophy, and numerous studies show that a great majority of people stick with the political party of their parents. That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions–I’m one of them–but overall, statistically, its the norm, and I’d be willing to bet its the same way with religion. You say its the thing we want that keep hanging on, and at a subconscious level–and conscious–the things we want are things we’ve been taught/trained to want. Valoel, you may be exception, and there are certainly others, but I’m talking about a statistical majority.
I think Valoel may have been referring to those of us on this website. The website for those hanging on for cultural reasons is the NOM site (http://www.newordermormon.org/http://www.newordermormon.org/” class=”bbcode_url”> wordsleuth23 wrote:Valoel wrote:
spacious maze wrote: Most of us are probably here for that reason. I think it’s culture, not truth, that keeps people hanging on.
I’m not sure that is accurate. The things that keep us hanging on … are the things that keep us wanting to hang on. For me, I really have little attachment to the culture. My wife would be thrilled if I just gave up and left the Church. I am actually still here for the spiritual truths. I found myself still finding a lot of value in the spiritual aspects of the Mormon religious metaphor. I don’t believe in the literal truth of a lot of it now, but I still very much value the “truthiness” of it. I think that is a Hawkgrrrl word.
I politely disagree. I would bet that a great majority of people stick with the religion of their families–especially is those families were devout.
I impolitely agree with all of you (jk ws123
I think spacious maze was talking about us here at staylds.com not the church membership as a whole. As such, Valoel was right to point out that we all are on a different place on the “truth” spectrum, as well as the “cultural” spectrum. And wordsleuth is right, imho, that most people are mormon and stay mormon by birthright and nothing else. (especially considering the extreme levels of indoctrination at an early age and insulation from “other” ideas as adults.)
No, jmb and swimordie are not the same person, this is finally proven here! check the time stamps. swimordie wrote:No, jmb and swimordie are not the same person, this is finally proven here! check the time stamps.
I didn’t know there was confusion on that issue. But in any case I’m glad we’ve cleared that up.I stay because I love to serve the people and because the overarching theology enthralls me and stirs my soul. I’m not going to let the minutiae of the imperfect way I and others actually practice and live it get in the way of he beauty of the ideal. I figure if there really is a God, and if there really is some sort of Atonement / grace, that the gap between what I see cosmically and practically is absorbed in that Atonement / grace – so I don’t bother fretting over that gap. It is what it is, and my job is to strive to find a way to close the gap in my own life and help others do so in theirs – with no expectations as to the speed at which they do it.
Maybe having to deal with me is all that I can offer – and maybe that’s enough.
Old-Timer wrote:I figure if there really is a God, and if there really is some sort of Atonement / grace, that the gap between what I see cosmically and practically is absorbed in that Atonement / grace – so I don’t bother fretting over that gap.
That quote is fantastic!
Sorry for fixing it so that others won’t be distracted by the original hilarity, swimordie. It was astoundingly funny, I admit. HiJolly said…..Proof of exclusively subjective experience must by necessity (or, nature) be different than proof of the physical. If God wanted to reveal Himself, and yet not interfere with moral agency and the operation of faith, how else could He do it? To bad we can’t answer that question to the satisfation of anyone but ourselves, but I think it well worth considering, nonetheless. HiJolly
Wow, HiJolly thanks for that line. I love being hit in the mind with ideas that just stop me from reading any further, breath deeply and think….
I gather from a lot of your recent replies that many here don’t view the church from a literal perspective. I guess I’ll post a sub-question then: If the church is not a literal working entity, and we place our value on its ideas and the goodness we receive from its practices- is the church, instead, more of a philosophy? My take on spacious’ question: I see the church as a “literal” vehicle in the service opportunities it affords; actively participating in a “community” within your literal community, I feel, is only beneficial, when done for altruistic, humanistic and realistic reasons.
The theology and eschatology of the church is pure philosophy, imho. Possibly, as a way for an individual to derive meaning for life, universe, cosmology, after-life, etc. A common pursuit of humankind.
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