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Cadence, I think you’ve asked a good question (although a regular occurring one.) There is one form of belief which is called deism (not to be confused with theism), which holds God created the world, but it runs by itself, and he doesn’t get involved. I suspect our Universe has a creator, but does he always get involved? Maybe he doesn’t sometimes. I don’t know. I do think that some things, such as Earthquakes and volcanoes are part of the process which keeps our planet alive, and so we don’t see the bigger picture. They kill thousands, but perhaps keep billions alive in an odd way.
Quote:Why does this loving Mormon God seem so willing to let good people drift into apostasy?
Sometimes apostasy leads to learning experiences. Adam fell that men might be…
Quote:It could be that He’s far less involved than our attempts at reducing cognitive dissonance allow. It may mean that he works through others (angels, humans) who, like all less-than-godlike creatures, screw up and don’t follow-through on His commands and suggestions. So, although He wants a lot of good to happen, it doesnt’ occur due to human frailties.
This is a fascinating idea, and would account for certain things.
SamBee wrote:Sometimes apostasy leads to learning experiences. Adam fell that men might be…
Reading this gave me the chills… in a good way!:thumbup: Old-Timer wrote:I understand totally what you’re saying, but I simply will not mock or dismiss someone else’s experience that they feel have involved God in some way – even in ways that seem inconsequential to others.
I do not mock, I am just jealous. I wish I could figure out how God speaks. But my real question was why with all the good smart people leaving the church does not God step in. How many of us have heard stories of individuals who prayed and prayed for an answer and got nothing. So they were left to their own do decide and the evidence was overwhelming that the church was manufactured by men. So they leave. I know for me at least if I had gotten some answer I would still be a believing member. If the church has any truth it just seems that God could easily let you know when you desperately are asking, but yet so many do not get an answer and drift away.
Featherina wrote:SamBee wrote:Sometimes apostasy leads to learning experiences. Adam fell that men might be…
Reading this gave me the chills… in a good way!:thumbup: I’m glad it’s in a good way!
😆 I don’t want to be misunderstood here. I don’t think it’s a good thing to go off and steal, murder, rape and whatever… these are all wrong under any circumstances, but sometimes I think we do need to step back. It’s like the old Arabic story, about the man who wishes to become a poet, and spends years learning how to be one at some remote location in the desert. Then his teacher tells him to forget everything he’s just learnt.
Sometimes the stuff in church becomes so stale. When it becomes stale, it ceases to teach us. There are so many things I’ve learnt, and some of them are the hard way.
Quote:But my real question was why with all the good smart people leaving the church does not God step in. How many of us have heard stories of individuals who prayed and prayed for an answer and got nothing. So they were left to their own do decide and the evidence was overwhelming that the church was manufactured by men. So they leave. I know for me at least if I had gotten some answer I would still be a believing member. If the church has any truth it just seems that God could easily let you know when you desperately are asking, but yet so many do not get an answer and drift away.
Here’s some of my take on this Cadence:
* God does not just exist, and influence the COJCLDS, he has influence elsewhere, including on other churches, and even on other religions. But in all these cases, i believe the stupidity of man (and I mean that in both senses, as males are often to blame as is mankind) creeps in and diverts us from God’s will.
* Perhaps God was calling his faithful (and they may have been faithful in a bizarre way) to do his will in places outside the church, rather than being tied up within it.
* The people in question were probably overpressurised by missionaries, and were beaten over the head with certain doctrine.
* Our dress code and chapels don’t usually inspire much spirituality, in and of themselves, IMHO. (Other than modesty – I don’t wish to be distracted by short skirts and cleavage, thank you!)
* God’s revelation does not just exist in the written and spoken word, or amongst people. I think God’s scriptures can partially be seen as much in the desert of Moses and Utah, or in the woods near Joseph Smith’s home, or in the depths of the ocean which many Americans once crossed.
This is a bit from the Wikipedia article on the great John Muir, grandfather of modern environmentalism:
Quote:But as Muir became attached to the American natural landscapes he explored,
Williams notes that he began to see another “primary source for understanding God: the Book of Nature.” [in addition to the Bible he had been brought up with.] According to Williams, in nature, especially in the wilderness, Muir was able to study the plants and animals in an environment that he believed “came straight from the hand of God, uncorrupted by civilization and domestication.”[41]:43 As Tallmadge notes, Muir’s belief in this “Book of Nature” compelled him to tell the story of “this creation in words any reader could understand.” As a result, his writings were to become “prophecy, for [they] sought to change our angle of vision.”[23]:53 Williams notes that Muir’s philosophy and world view rotated around his perceived dichotomy between civilization and nature. From this developed his core belief that “wild is superior”.[41]:41 His nature writings became a “synthesis of natural theology” with scripture that helped him understand the origins of the natural world. According to Williams, philosophers and theologians such as Thomas Dick suggested that the “best place to discover the true attributes of deity was in Nature.” He came to believe that God was always active in the creation of life and thereby kept the natural order of the world.[41]:41 As a result, Muir “styled himself as a John the Baptist,” adds Williams, “whose duty was to immerse in ‘mountain baptism’ everyone he could.”[41]:46 Williams concludes that Muir saw nature as a great teacher, “revealing the mind of God,” and this belief became the central theme of his later journeys and the “subtext” of his nature writing.[41]:50
During his career as writer and while living in the mountains, Muir continued to experience the “presence of the divine in nature,” writes Holmes[7]:5 From Travels in Alaska: “Every particle of rock or water or air has God by its side leading it the way it should go; The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness; In God’s wildness is the hope of the world.”[42]:317 His personal letters also conveyed these feelings of ecstasy. Historian Catherine Albanese stated that in one of his letters, “Muir’s eucharist made Thoreau’s feast on wood-chuck and huckleberry seem almost anemic.” Muir was extremely fond of Thoreau and was probably influenced more by him than even Emerson. Muir often referred to himself as a “disciple” of Thoreau. Albanese added that “Muir had successfully taken biblical language and inverted it to proclaim the passion of attachment, not to a supernatural world but to a natural one. To go to the mountains and sequoia forests, for Muir, was to engage in religious worship of utter seriousness and dedication.” She quotes Muir’s letter: Do behold the King in his glory, King Sequoia. Behold! Behold! seems all I can say. Some time ago I left all for Sequoia: have been and am at his feet fasting and praying for light, for is he not the greatest light in the woods; in the world.
Another great quote, this time from the great writer Arthur C. Clarke…
Quote:I sometimes think that the universe is a machine designed for the perpetual astonishment of astronomers.
And he was an atheist!
Thanks, Cadence, for the response. All I can say is I understand, since I’m somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Cadence wrote:Why does this loving Mormon God seem so willing to let good people drift into apostasy? Why when all it would take is a real verifiable answer to a sincere prayer to keep them going. Why is he so willing to let good men and women stumble around and agonize trying to divine the truth in the church?…If I had a child lost in the forest and she was calling out to me for help. I would not remain silent…
Cadence wrote:…my real question was why with all the good smart people leaving the church does not God step in. How many of us have heard stories of individuals who prayed and prayed for an answer and got nothing. So they were left to their own do decide…If the church has any truth it just seems that God could easily let you know when you desperately are asking, but yet so many do not get an answer and drift away.
Maybe God is content to just let people believe whatever they want to and doesn’t think it’s very important for everyone to believe the same things to begin with. It looks to me like people are already commonly motivated by self-righteous indignation and groupthink to expect others to believe the same things they do and want to strictly regulate other people’s behavior without needing any help from God. If God was really directly behind half of the things he has been given credit for then I would expect to see a little more consistency and accuracy regardless of the time or location most of these supposed revelations were received.
SamBee wrote:* God’s revelation does not just exist in the written and spoken word, or amongst people. I think God’s scriptures can partially be seen as much in the desert of Moses and Utah, or in the woods near Joseph Smith’s home, or in the depths of the ocean which many Americans once crossed.
:thumbup: Every time I spend time in nature (esp. by myself), I learn something new.
No better symbolic teachers than nature!
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Cadence wrote:Why does this loving Mormon God seem so willing to let good people drift into apostasy? Why when all it would take is a real verifiable answer to a sincere prayer to keep them going. Why is he so willing to let good men and women stumble around and agonize trying to divine the truth in the church?…If I had a child lost in the forest and she was calling out to me for help. I would not remain silent…
Cadence wrote:…my real question was why with all the good smart people leaving the church does not God step in. How many of us have heard stories of individuals who prayed and prayed for an answer and got nothing. So they were left to their own do decide…If the church has any truth it just seems that God could easily let you know when you desperately are asking, but yet so many do not get an answer and drift away.
Maybe God is content to just let people believe whatever they want to and doesn’t think it’s very important for everyone to believe the same things to begin with. It looks to me like people are already commonly motivated by self-righteous indignation and groupthink to expect others to believe the same things they do and want to strictly regulate other people’s behavior without needing any help from God. If God was really directly behind half of the things he has been given credit for then I would expect to see a little more consistency and accuracy regardless of the time or location most of these supposed revelations were received.
It can feel like we’ve lost something, to realize that just like Santa isn’t real, nor are the limits many of us have put on God, making God into our own image.
But the beautiful part is that believing itself, IS REAL!
It’s such a paradox which, frankly, I don’t know if I’ll ever completely understand.
We need illusions to help us connect – how else can we relate except through symbols (like as we read & type)?
Yet, if we get too stuck on the symbols (instead of what they point to, or help us achieve), then we lose our balance and life seems meaningless or painful.
What is the most healthy symbol for God?
What helps me keep balanced & in the “flow” of spirituality and life?
There’s not just one answer… but several in harmony…
Loving others as myself, enjoying – via rich emotions – happiness, sadness, laughing, crying, despair, hope.
I used to think only the comfortable feelings were of God, but now I realize it’s all part of God… & God said it was all good.
🙂 It’s all GOoD because it contributes to our spiritual progression.
Featherina wrote:SamBee wrote:* God’s revelation does not just exist in the written and spoken word, or amongst people. I think God’s scriptures can partially be seen as much in the desert of Moses and Utah, or in the woods near Joseph Smith’s home, or in the depths of the ocean which many Americans once crossed.
:thumbup: Every time I spend time in nature (esp. by myself), I learn something new.
No better symbolic teachers than nature!
Someone else said it is “God’s other Bible”. Of course, there is always “nature red in tooth and claw” as yet another person once called it… we know nature is brutal too, but that doesn’t counteract all the beauty. I often feel much closer to God in a beautiful landscape, than amongst crowds of people.
SamBee wrote:Someone else said it is “God’s other Bible”. Of course, there is always “nature red in tooth and claw” as yet another person once called it… we know nature is brutal too, but that doesn’t counteract all the beauty. I often feel much closer to God in a beautiful landscape, than amongst crowds of people.
Good points, Sam… getting deep into nature can get a little “wild!”Still, there is a lot of beauty & peace I’ve found in nature…
And each “natural” temple is unique…
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5083150347_1e2c29969e_m.jpg http://www.gc.maricopa.edu/appliedscience/jrtweb/images/angels01.JPG http://www.vacation-destinations.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/caribbean-beach-chairs.jpg My favorite verses on this topic: psalm 8:3-9 wrote:When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
D&C 88 wrote:He [God, Christ] is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the
power of Godwho sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and
he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God.
Behold, all these are kingdoms, and
any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen Godmoving in his majesty and power. I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended.
The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.
Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound. :thumbup: i have read a few posts here and i’m reminded of what Christ said when he was on the cross after the 9th hour: “my god, my god, why hast thou forsaken me ?” (Matthew 27:46). i know in my own crisis of faith i felt God had abandoned me. i think the lesson i can learn from my own life and that of Christ is that life is about experiencing life in all its guts and glory moments. God (Father) leaves us to learn for ourselves and we get credit for what we endure – even if it sucks ! this reminds me of God’s reply to Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants after Joseph felt comfortless undergoing what probably felt like endless days of misery in a prison for false charges:
Doc & Cov 121:7-8
Quote:7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.
after a period of time from the pain of my crisis of faith i feel better off for going what i went through. and i heard that similarly said by Joseph Smith, and even those who suffered as Mormon pioneers in the Martin Handcart company – one fellow who was quoted saying: (paraphrased)” just when i thought i had no more to go on, i felt as if some invisible force was pushing me along…”
in the end i think what i have discovered in my own life and my own crisis of faith is that you don’t always need a church to find God. a church can be a means in helping us find God and then after that we can find God anywhere – and to me that has been the greatest blessing the Mormon church has given me – that of knowing there is a God who loves us.
If there is a God, and his creations within the universe(or galaxy) are so vast then how could he make time for poor little ol’ me ?
my answer: i think if you can think of God as a father, then all that God is trying to do is bring up his children the best way he knows how – by providing this temporary existence called “mortality” so that we can know what life on earth is all about – and we will know how to bring up our own children in the future.
I was struggling with that one the other night BLC
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