Ignorance was bliss

[Anonymous]

How does one reconcile Issues related to church?

The testimony that I once had was based on assumptions I made.

i.e. We have a living prophet who speaks with God. Therefore we are God’s one true church on the earth.

I had an implosion of my faith a few years ago and have been struggling ever since to rebuild something that resembles what I used to believe.

I just can’t seem to shake perceived issues that I have now with all things Mormon.

Some examples of what I’m talking about:

I had a testimony once of Joseph Smith seeing God and Jesus in the sacred grove. Even traveled there as a teen and felt reverence for the place.Then I learned of the evolution of the first vision account. I learned that there were many other people of Josephs time who had described similar experience.

Now I can’t help to wonder was it really what he said it was?

I believed the BoM was an indisputable historical account of ancient Israelites coming to the Americas and populating these lands.

I no longer feel that way.

Now every time I read the BoM and run across a verse copied from the KJV of the bible especially if it is something from the NT recorded 200 years before it was ever written in the bible it makes my head hurt.

Any way the list could go on for pages. My question comes down to how do I get over these stumbling blocks.

I have felt like I have been spiritually running in place for the last 3 years and haven’t gotten any where.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of things in life like that. I’ve been amazed at how wrong I’ve been in so many areas in the past, that I can’t help but wonder how many things I’m wrong about now. But I think with the Church, if you take out all the claims to truth, you’re left with something beautiful and good all the same.

Secondhand Lions wrote:

“Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love… true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

The Church gives us comfort in this crazy world and hope that things will (in the next life) get better. It gives us motivation to be kinder. It helps us to find meaning and be happy. All the rest is just commentary.

I’d suggest not worrying so much about whether or not the Church is true. I am annoyed just as much as anyone that it’s “truthfulness” is 90% of what is talked about. But what really counts is how good and useful it is for you.

[Anonymous]

I have little time so I will be quick.

The way I figure it JS was a visionary man. He had visions, felt called/directed by God, and started a church.

Our current church leaders are more like administrators than prophets. I do believe that they do much good and that they try to do what they believe God would have them do.

[Anonymous]

dande48 wrote:

There are a lot of things in life like that. I’ve been amazed at how wrong I’ve been in so many areas in the past, that I can’t help but wonder how many things I’m wrong about now. But I think with the Church, if you take out all the claims to truth, you’re left with something beautiful and good all the same.

Secondhand Lions wrote:

“Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love… true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

The Church gives us comfort in this crazy world and hope that things will (in the next life) get better. It gives us motivation to be kinder. It helps us to find meaning and be happy. All the rest is just commentary.

I’d suggest not worrying so much about whether or not the Church is true. I am annoyed just as much as anyone that it’s “truthfulness” is 90% of what is talked about. But what really counts is how good and useful it is for you.

Thanks for that. It is posts like this that help me remember why I stay LDS.

I actually used that second hand lions quote in a sacrament meeting talk.

[Anonymous]

Love the quote , I stay because it makes my wife happy and I love following Jesus ,not because the church is true but because I believe what I believe and no one can take that away.

[Anonymous]

In the course of some casual conversation a coworker mentioned she was a “recovering Catholic” a couple weeks back. She’s part time so I have little contact with her and I don’t think she knows I’m Mormon (I have not made it known here, although I admit to being Christian). I thought to myself “I know what you mean.” and left it at that. She was in my area again yesterday and casually mentioned something like that again and since no one else was around this time I told her I knew what she meant and asked if she goes to church. She replied that she did but not every Sunday and that it wasn’t the doctrine itself that bothers her, but the dogma and gave a few examples (not going to church is a sin, for example). I agreed that this was my issue with some churches as well and that I am a huge believer in grace and mercy. We left it at that.

I have been to the “sacred grove” many times and I have read all of the accounts of the FV as well as accounts of others who had similar visions around the same time JS did (that kind of thing was more accepted then than now). I do believe JS had a profound spiritual experience, but that’s it. You’ll note that he never directly says the personages were Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, he merely implies so and only in one account. And Joseph rarely talked about the experience.

The BoM is a good book that does testify of Christ and can and does bring people closer to God. I personally think it is a big collection of parables, but I likewise don’t see the Bible as literal.

I recognize your list is much longer than that and so is mine. But it’s all like my friend’s dogma, and I don’t go to church because I think it’s a sin not to or because I believe JS (or RMN) is a prophet or that I believe the BoM is true (and I’ll say it again, I don’t even know what that really means). I go to church to be with my wife, to be around “people who yearn to know and draw closer to their Savior by serving God and fellowmen, just like [me].” (Dieter F. Uchtdorf). I’ve let go of the dogma, and I love the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is how and why I StayLDS.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

You’ll note that he never directly says the personages were Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, he merely implies so and only in one account.

This reminded me of something I noted in the first vision recorded in the Book of Mormon, Lehi’s vision:

1 Nephi 1:8 wrote:

And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

I think it’s important to realize that what happens in a vision is not an actual, physical, historical event (although, according to Paul, he once mistook reality for a vision). It’s more or less a dream, though sometimes a “waking dream”. If you look at the first vision accounts, here is what we know:

1. Joseph Smith went into the forest to be alone.

2. As he prayed he felt the powers of darkness gather around.

3. Suddenly, he saw a “vision” and the feelings of darkness ended.

4. When the “vision” ended, he was lying on his back.

Sounds to me like the kid blacked out, and had a fantastic dream; maybe it was sent by the anthropomorphic Abrahamic deity, maybe not. But either way, as with even the most vivid dreams, the details are going to be fuzzy. What’s more, there’s not always a solid connection to reality or truth. What counts is not so much what happened, but what it inspired Joseph Smith to do. What does it inspire us to do?

[Anonymous]

Rebel wrote:

… I stay because it makes my wife happy and I love following Jesus ,not because the church is true but because I believe what I believe and no one can take that away.

Staying for family has been my greatest motivator as well.

But the staying I’m doing now is not enjoyable. I don’t look forward to going every Sunday. Luckily I don’t have a calling because the last one I had was a struggle for me (Being EQP while in a full blown faith crisis was not fun).

My previous Mormon identity was a verb now it feels like cures word.

[Anonymous]

part time believer wrote:

But the staying I’m doing now is not enjoyable. I don’t look forward to going every Sunday.

What’s the hardest thing for you, in attending Church, would you say?

[Anonymous]

part time believer wrote:

Any way the list could go on for pages. My question comes down to how do I get over these stumbling blocks.

I have felt like I have been spiritually running in place for the last 3 years and haven’t gotten any where.

Thank you

You have to go forward on a different paradigm. Rather than going forward in faith, go forth in agnosticism. I have great faith in my own fallibility, my own ignorance, etcetra. That some of this may all be true someday, or that God will hold me accountable given the spiritual “witnesses” I have had, or maybe he won’t — I don’t know. So get comfortable with not knowing for sure. billions of people have lived their life from that perspective so I am sure God knows how to deal with it when the time comes.

Also, look at it as a cultural experience, not as a 100% “truth church” one. If you have a network of relationships around you somewhat built on the church, then you can’t just leave it — for their sake (in my opinion). Learn to integrate it back into your life again but on different terms.

My paradigm is now based on the question “what will make my happy or bring my joy?” Not selfish joy, but the joy that comes from wholesome activities, of which service is one. Hometeaching, under the old program, had to be put in its place as it was a flawed program. I adapted before they made the announcement. I attend church on my own terms now, and if they don’t like it, that’s fine with me — I am comfortable in my own skin. I put my service hours into the community, and have the whole world to turn to with my service — and the church is no longer my sole community or the near center of my universe. In fact, it’s a distant third now — my work first, my community service and bands second, and the church a distant third.

You need to realign your relationships and where you get your happiness sources, while keeping the church in the loop. I don’t know your family situation, but if you have a TBM spouse, keeping the marriage stable is likely one objective. And staying active is part of that.

I hope that helps,

SD

[Anonymous]

dande48 wrote:

part time believer wrote:

But the staying I’m doing now is not enjoyable. I don’t look forward to going every Sunday.

What’s the hardest thing for you, in attending Church, would you say?

The hardest part used to be just walking in the building. After I was released I knew that a hand full of ward members were aware something was up with me.

So I had a lot of anxiety any time I was around Mormons. That has improved over time and now my Sabbath hang up is that I feel totally out of place. My beliefs have changed so much that I just can’t relate to most of what is said. Whether from SM talks, testimonies or SS lessons.

It feels like the one time I went to an evangelical church and just didn’t get it.

The entire worship service left me feeling confused and with ringing in my ears from being to close to the stage.

Except with lds services I know how I used to feel but can’t bring those feelings out of me again. I guess I do a lot of cringing now to things that used to bring me warm fuzzies.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

part time believer wrote:

I just can’t relate to most of what is said. Whether from SM talks, testimonies or SS lessons.

I know how you feel… What do you believe in now?

[Anonymous]

part time believer wrote:

…now my Sabbath hang up is that I feel totally out of place.

I know how that feels. Quite often at church I’ll hear someone say that there’s a place for everyone. People say that and genuinely mean it but I think it’s a case of the phrase meaning different things to different people.

I think from an orthodox perspective, “there’s a place for everyone” means that it doesn’t matter if you’re sinning or different, we’ll welcome your presence, we’ll help you become like us.

There are several ways to feel out of place though. I’m sure the church is very welcoming in creating space for people that are sinning or different but ultimately have the goal of conforming. I also think that people that feel out of place wouldn’t feel out of place if the environment was as welcoming as we believe it to be.

It takes a diverse community to create a space for diverse people. Maybe that’s a reason I stay, to be the fish out of water waiting for the moment that a fish out of water is needed… if that moment should ever come. To help the community make good on its claim to have a place for everyone, even when I myself feel crowded out every Sunday.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for every ones remarks, it’s so refreshing to hear these kinds of thoughts.

dande48 wrote:

What do you believe in now?

I don’t know…… I like to think of my loss of faith as a Jenga puzzle that fell over and I still haven’t rebuilt it.

It feels good to think that there is a Supreme Being out there rooting for me to make it back to him/her/it. But I can no longer frame that around the orthodox LDS proprietary info… such as proper priesthood authority, Temple rituals and Institutional Tithes that God is supposed to be very particular about. Like how convert baptism is required of one who might already have been baptized in a different in a different faith and then on top of that the baptism has to be performed perfectly. If one word is added or not said or the pinky toe pops out while being dunked it doesn’t count and you have to start over.

Its stuff like that was comforting to me before because it creates order and certify in life.

Now it makes me think we just have made up a lot of this stuff we think is important.

I really like how God is depicted in the book “The Shack”. She blows away the anal retentive god I used to believe in.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

I know how that feels. Quite often at church I’ll hear someone say that there’s a place for everyone. People say that and genuinely mean it but I think it’s a case of the phrase meaning different things to different people.

I think from an orthodox perspective, “there’s a place for everyone” means that it doesn’t matter if you’re sinning or different, we’ll welcome your presence, we’ll help you become like us.

There are several ways to feel out of place though. I’m sure the church is very welcoming in creating space for people that are sinning or different but ultimately have the goal of conforming. I also think that people that feel out of place wouldn’t feel out of place if the environment was as welcoming as we believe it to be.

It takes a diverse community to create a space for diverse people. Maybe that’s a reason I stay, to be the fish out of water waiting for the moment that a fish out of water is needed… if that moment should ever come. To help the community make good on its claim to have a place for everyone, even when I myself feel crowded out every Sunday.

Nibbler your statement rings so true to my experience.

You sound like a true Saint.

[Author]

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