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One of the things I haven’t liked is that the media here has constantly been blaming religion for the spread. Not sports games, supermarkets, Amazon or high schools but religion. It really seems to be singled out for special attention and it’s wrong. Many non-religious people don’t seem to see the value in religious services. I had this conversation with someone recently, who goes to the gym on a regular basis. The gyms are now shut in this country, but for my money, a gym is a far worse vector for spreading a respiratory disease than a church, especially as people can take their masks off in it, handle everything and pant over everything.. But he still blamed religion. That is how ingrained anti-religious feeling has become here. A church service at least gives people hope and happiness and is less infectious than any gym.
Oh and you can also take planes here, although religious services are banned..Flights to other countries in an air conditioned container.
SamBee, I agree with you about that. I think it is a very unfortunate aspect of our human nature that we view people who think like we do as intelligent, sophisticated, and enlightened. But when we encounter people who think differently than we do, we view them as dumb, simple-minded, and backward.
In the specific case of religion and COVID, I do believe that governments that purport to have freedom of religion actually tend to over-restrict religion. There was the case last year that went to the SCOTUS where religious gatherings in hot-zones were restricted to no more than 10 people, without regard to how large the space was, or what measures were taken to prevent the spread. Yet, liquor stores were not limited in to that same extent.
So, I appreciate your bringing that issue up. I think society can be just as guilty of overstepping as religion.
In this particular case, what I find disturbing is that for DAB, the natural position for the Church is to push against the Gov’t as much as allowed, rather than to take an independent view and recognize that COVID is a human issue, not a Gov’t or religious issue, and then to try to do right by humanity.
SamBee wrote:
One of the things I haven’t liked is that the media here has constantly been blaming religion for the spread. Not sports games, supermarkets, Amazon or high schools but religion. It really seems to be singled out for special attention and it’s wrong.
I don’t think the media especially singles out religion/churches but the fact is churches are responsible for some of the spread as are some of the other things you mention. On churches, the original major outbreak in the US (New York City) was directly related to a member of a particular religion who brought COVID back with him then spread it to his family, his congregation, his kids’ religious school, his workplace, and public transportation. Exponentially, all the congregants also spread it in the community which lead to thousands of cases and thousands of deaths in and around NYC. And during the height of the pandemic and continued infection his church continues to defy government and health expert recommendations. Closer to home in the summer we had a congregation that broke the recommendation on gathering size for a wedding – leading to hundreds of infections and several deaths. The government and media blame religion because they are to blame. In regard to our church, guys like Bednar can jump on the always present persecution bandwagon and gain even more sympathy, especially among the pioneer heritage crowd of the Corridor.
BUT, in fairness, at least here I don’t think the media blames only religion or even mainly religion. I don’t see sporting events get much blame because they seem to be pretty clean and mostly without spectators but they harp on gatherings of people you don’t live with they do have recommendations in place regarding stores because it does happen. And there’s a huge division about whether schools should be in session or not. Our local schools mostly are for 4 days a week plus virtual learning but they also had shut downs because of increased infections. And the biggest blame of all goes to bars and restaurants around here – and rightly so. I honestly don’t see where you’re going with Amazon. What do they have to do with the spread or any blame?
All that said, why is it about blame anyway? We didn’t start the fire, it happened to us. We do need to put it out though – and if no restaurants, school, stores, and church (or Amazon) are they way to do that then so be it. Until 75% of people are vaccinated or infected we’re not going to reach herd immunity – and we’re not anywhere near hitting that mark in part because of stupid –
STUPID– conspiracy theories. The media where I am definitely does. We have low church attendance (across denoms), except perhaps RCs. A lot of old people. It is easier for the media here to pick on churches than supermarkets which advertize with them. Supermarkers are never implicated, yet every time I’ve been in a large one it’s horrific. No distancing at all, folk coughing on goods. It has been so bad I took an anxiety attack once.
I’m afraid to say though I wonder if it would have been cheaper and easier to isolate vulnerable or elderly people than do what we’ve done. The entire global economy is being collapsed ,which will end up killing millions by itself.
SamBee wrote:
The media where I am definitely does. We have low church attendance (across denoms), except perhaps RCs. A lot of old people. It is easier for the media here to pick on churches than supermarkets which advertize with them.Supermarkers are never implicated, yet every time I’ve been in a large one it’s horrific. No distancing at all, folk coughing on goods. It has been so bad I took an anxiety attack once.
I’m afraid to say though I wonder if it would have been cheaper and easier to isolate vulnerable or elderly people than do what we’ve done. The entire global economy is being collapsed ,which will end up killing millions by itself.
I’m not sure church attendance is down all that much in other churches but I don’t know for sure, I only have anecdotal evidence from non-member family and co-workers. Ours is the only church that seems to be following the less than 50 rule and masks and no singing. Everyone else I know talks about masks being sporadic (some wear them, some don’t, some wear them until the get inside, etc.). Some of the more “God will protect us” churches (this is from coworkers) don’t wear masks at all. None of them have attendance restrictions, although some of them have very small congregations to begin with.
Supermarkets (and WalMart, Target, and Lowe’s among others) are restricted as to how many they can have inside at once and they all have social distancing markers on the floor, many have one-way aisles (WalMart gave up on that) and all require masks which is mostly enforced. And generally if there is a positive case reported at a store the news reports “there was a worker at X store who worked X hours on these dates” just to keep people aware if they might be infected. Banks, by the way, only have drive throughs open for the most part. There have been no major outbreaks reported as a result of stores but there have been from churches, bars, restaurants, other large gatherings (weddings, parties, etc.), and smaller gatherings.
I think a good number of the elderly/vulnerable here have isolated themselves. Amazon and grocery delivery (or parking lot pickup) are common here. I think the majority of infections in the current surge (which is beginning to subside) has been more middle aged and even younger people – hence higher infection rates but fewer deaths.
Supermarkets are places where the virus will be transmitted, just like any other place where people gather, but what’s the alternative? Shut down supermarkets to be fair to churches? Churches could open (and have) and be in-line with the rules for supermarkets but I see supermarkets as fundamentally different than a church. I can watch church services online, I can’t download food and other necessities. I don’t know how long the average person could go without church services but I’m positive it’s a longer duration than the average person could go without food.
Churches are probably at the receiving end of more ire because your average person probably sees churches as not being as essential as a grocery store. It probably comes down to: Grocery store? Gotta take the risk. Church? It can wait.
In America churches are granted special exceptions to the rules that other businesses have to follow. I could see that adding to some resentment towards churches/religious peoples among business owners that have to remain closed and people that are concerned with the spread of the virus in their communities. Something like, “We locked up everything except for the absolute essentials… but the churches are allowed to act as if there’s nothing going on, so all the effort went out the window.”
The local grocery store could be spreading the virus more than the local church but it’s all about optics. People have to go to the store and the store isn’t trying to skirt the rules.
Churches could also be engaging in riskier behaviors that creates a bad impression among the public. Not requiring masks, not adhering to indoor gathering limitations, singing, rites that go against safety guidelines. All could contribute to bad optics.
In-person schools are shut down in my area. Churches are not. It’s largely the same argument with schools. Churches get special privileges (above the rules) and that can breed resentment among people that are sacrificing to stop the spread.
SamBee wrote:
Many non-religious people don’t seem to see the value in religious services. I had this conversation with someone recently, who goes to the gym on a regular basis. The gyms are now shut in this country, but for my money, a gym is a far worse vector for spreading a respiratory disease than a church, especially as people can take their masks off in it, handle everything and pant over everything.. But he still blamed religion. That is how ingrained anti-religious feeling has become here. A church service at least gives people hope and happiness and is less infectious than any gym.
I agree that gyms have a much higher potential to spread virus. I would push back on the last statement though. The non-religious don’t find value in religious services just like the non-gym rat doesn’t see the value in working out at the gym. The gym rat probably gets an equal amount of hope and happiness out of their gym activity that a religious person gets out of a religious service.
Everyone has had to sacrifice something. Many people have sacrificed a great deal. I don’t see it as a contest of who’s to blame.
A text wall to say that perceived preferential treatment and unequal levels of personal sacrifices made are going to create issues, whether it’s a church skirting the rules or the media unfairly laying all the blame on churches.
My family were Protestants. Attendance is way down on my childhood, and mostly elderly. They often meet in places built at least a century ago with leaky roofs. They have next to no.youth retention. LDS attendance here is *good* compared to most of them. The RC numbers are up mainly due to.immigration. Not many immigrants go to the state church. Pentecostal churches are like mushrooms here. We have a few African churches – they too come and go.
nibbler wrote:
Supermarkets are places where the virus will be transmitted, just like any other place where people gather, but what’s the alternative? Shut down supermarkets to be fair to churches?I know small businesses who are being bankrupted by our lockdowns (which are much stricter than the USA). I can’t help thinking this crisis is being used to force them out and put everything online. (And the main person driving this internationally happens to be someone with millions invested in computers – conflict of interest much?) Debt coplectors are still out there, collecting money people are banned from making.
I know people who go to the supermarket SEVERAL times a day during the lockdown. I’ve pulled them up on it. There is no excuse for that. The supermarkets are full of people here, close together, no masks half the time etc it’s horrific. And yet the media won’t talk about it at all. But they do blame churches.
The LDS are right, food storage is a good thing just now. They can’t even shut the supermarkets here a day or two a week. They used to within living memory. When I was little, shops were closed Sundays in many places, half day on Wednesday and Saturdays and some shut on Mondays. 24 hr shops were unheard of, except one or two gas stations.We survived.
I have inside sources about Amazon too. And guess what? They don’t clean their warehouses any more than usual now. Meanwhile every church and small business has been cleaning to OCD levels.
Quote:
Churches are probably at the receiving end of more ire because your average person probably sees churches as not being as essential as a grocery store. It probably comes down to: Grocery store? Gotta take the risk. Church? It can wait.They are soft targets. There is substantial anti-religious bigotry in this country and religions do not have the power they do in the USA.
Quote:The local grocery store could be spreading the virus more than the local church but it’s all about optics. People have to go to the store and the store isn’t trying to skirt the rules.
Small shops are not the problem. They are being slowly killed off by this. Big supermarkets flout al the rules here and no one questions them.
Quote:Churches could also be engaging in riskier behaviors that creates a bad impression among the public. Not requiring masks, not adhering to indoor gathering limitations, singing, rites that go against safety guidelines. All could contribute to bad optics.
LDS churches here have had far stricter guidelines than cafes. The only time people’s masks have come off are a) special exemptions or b) to take bread and water. Then they go back on. Much much more hygienic than most places I see.
We have a tiered system here. We were allowed fifty, then twenty, now it is banned altogether until Easter at earliest.
I think religion is the canary in the coalmine when it comes to freedoms. It doesn’t look like many of ours are coming back soon. The only way most people will be able to support themselves here is dependence on government money.
I saw this related article yesterday on the Deseret News site: https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-02-08/elder-bednar-temples-covid-pandemic-opportunity-learn-lessons-203295 ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2021-02-08/elder-bednar-temples-covid-pandemic-opportunity-learn-lessons-203295 Here’s something that jumped out to me and I’ll explain why after:
Quote:Elder Bednar recently delivered a message about the early Saints in Nauvoo, Illinois, who flocked to the still-under-construction temple there to receive temple endowments and ordinances before the forced exodus in February 1846. Early Latter-day Saints had to wait decades before being able to return again to the temple.
“Many of those people only went to the temple one time. I am not sure we remember that,” he said. “They trekked to the west, and the first temple in Utah was not dedicated until 1877. As for the COVID-19 pandemic of 2020-21, our year period of absence is a fraction of theirs,”
I admittedly and unknown to me at the time had some pretty good mentors in my early church membership – people who suggested I read things like Leonard Arrington’s
The Mormon Experience. That’s why church history wasn;t a problem for me – I knew things like Joseph being a polygamist. Now to the above quote. I don’t think the endowment house has been a secret. There is this article on the church website
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/endowment-house?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/endowment-house?lang=eng Quote:Between 1855 and 1889, the Saints performed more than 54,000 endowments, 68,000 sealings, and 134,000 baptisms for the dead in the Endowment House.
From an Obi Wan Kenobi point of view, Bednar isn’t lying when he says “Early Latter-day Saints had to wait decades before being able to return again to the temple.” They did wait decades to return to an actual temple – but they did not wait decades to perform temple ordinances.* So what is Bednar trying to say here? Is he purposely leaving the endowment house out of it because it doesn’t fit his narrative? Does he not know about the endowment house? Does he think people don’t know about the endowment house? Is he hiding history for some other reason (polygamist marriages were performed there)?
*It should be noted that the endowment house was not the only place temple ordinances were performed and that not all temple ordinances were performed in those places (most proxy ordinances were not done in those places).
I vote that Elder Bednar purposefully left it out in order to make a more forceful argument. I consider myself a storyteller and I love to study how movies based on real events alter the history in order to make a better, more coherent and compelling story. I feel that the way that we tell our stories (what we leave in and what we leave out) is a reflection of both the storyteller and the intended audience. Every story tells two stories, there is the story of the time and place in which the story is set and then there is the story of the storyteller and the environment that he or she lives in.
In the information age we are all held to a higher standard in regard to historical accuracy. You really need to go to one of those “based on real events” formats to get back into some of the more creative aspects of storytelling.
In summary, I think that Elder Bednar was trying to emphasize the sacrifice of the pioneers and contrast that with our own (by comparison) inconveniences. He did so by selectively highlighting the facts that best suited his thesis.
I think you may be right, Roy and that likely was his motivation (although as I have alluded to earlier I’m not so sure Bednar is really aware of some of our history). It’s true Bednar may have carefully worded what he said on purpose (referring specifically to a temple instead of ordinances) to make his point, but to some of us who don’t necessarily take things quite so literally (especially from living people) he fibbed here. Paraphrasing “Well it’s only been a year for us, that’s nothing compared to the decades the pioneers had to wait to go to the temple.” They did have to wait to go to the templebut they did not have to wait to get endowed or sealed to their spouses. Granted I am not a huge temple attender and honestly don’t get much from the temple, but people I know who are temple fans and love to go don’t seem so much enamored with the building itself but the ordinances themselves. Many of them are very concerned that this “great urgent work” for the dead is not getting done and that’s what they want. Under the current circumstances and endowment house wouldn’t have worked, although I should point out that the temples in phases 1 & 2 are essentially filling the same role as the endowment house (only some ordinances for the living). In the article Bednar also points out that many of the pioneers had only been to the temple once. That wasn’t so unusual either – proxy work has become much more of a big deal in the last 50 years or so than it was before that. When there was only one temple on the east coast of the US (Washington, DC) most of the old timers travelling from New England or the south went there and got endowed and sealed and that was it, they never went to the temple again because it was a big trip that required time and money. The same is still true of many of the Pacific islanders who save a lifetime to travel to New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa, etc., because they only have that one chance.
I get it, he’s the head temple guy (according to the article) and he’s trying to make a point that we will get back to normal and they’re working on doing it as safely as possible and this really isn’t such a big sacrifice (none for me) but I don’t think he needs to go to any extremes to make that point.
Even leaving out the details aside, it’s an odd parallel to draw. In one story people knew that was that, they were abandoning the temple; in the other people were suspending temple activities for a time, fully expecting to return. But like you point out Roy, he’s not telling a story for the sake of a history lesson, he’s writing a new story to teach a lesson to people now. In Mormon land Including stories about pioneers is a call for people to sacrifice. The abbreviated history also makes the lesson less boring than it would otherwise be.
Nice find DJ.
DarkJedi wrote:
Many of them are very concerned that this “great urgent work” for the dead is not getting done and that’s what they want.
The dead aren’t going anywhere and even a decade or century of waiting for an ordinance is nothing when compared to eternity. Covid was the perfect time to focus on sacrificing for the living. I get that Bednar’s focus is on the temple, but it’s an odd look to make the dead a priority during a pandemic.
nibbler wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Many of them are very concerned that this “great urgent work” for the dead is not getting done and that’s what they want.
The dead aren’t going anywhere and even a decade or century of waiting for an ordinance is nothing when compared to eternity. Covid was the perfect time to focus on sacrificing for the living. I get that Bednar’s focus is on the temple, but it’s an odd look to make the dead a priority during a pandemic.
Agreed, but there are plenty where I live who believe the second coming is extremely nigh (like tomorrow, or if not no later than April 6
:problem: ). One of our stake presidency is all about family history and temple work – he talks about almost nothing else. We have to get this work done right now! Every spare moment should be spent on family history, submitting names, and doing the work (in his opinion). There are a lot who buy into that. Of course I have my own beliefs on the subject, including the possibility that we’ll have 1,000 years to do that during the Millennium. I think most people here who “long to go to the temple again” are really concerned about doing the work for their dead relatives. Just this past Sunday we had a testimony from an old woman who said she has been a member for 50 years and her mother died just over a year ago. Her mother did not accept the gospel in this life and in fact was pretty hostile not speaking to her daughter for years after she joined the church. But she can;t wait to go to the temple and do her work because she’s absolutely sure she’ll accept it.:think: DarkJedi wrote:
One of our stake presidency is all about family history and temple work – he talks about almost nothing else.
That’s the trouble when people’s favorite hobby becomes a vital program for the rest of us. There’s not enough time in the day to do everyone’s favorite thing but there it is, another spinning plate to keep going.
I understand the importance of ordinances in the theology but as you say, when people resurrect during the millennium they’ll have 1000 years to work out getting baptized. Is our haste for the deceased or for us?
It probably doesn’t help that we talk about people being in a spirit “prison” until they accept the gospel and someone does their baptism for them. Then we’re making them stay in prison by not doing their ordinances fast enough, even if we’re in a pandemic. This reminds me of indexing. Even when I was a fully believing member, I always wondered why we couldn’t just wait a few more years for handwriting recognition software to get better and then have all the records indexed in a few days by a computer. Besides, some of these people would have been waiting for their ordinances for like 400 years already, what’s a few more?
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