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I’ve read: “The Old Testiment”
“The New Testiment”
“The Book of Mormon”
“Jesus the Christ” by James E. Talmage
“A Marvelous Work and a Wonder” by Le Grand Richards
“Gospel Principles” by ?
“An Insider’s View to Mormon Origins” by Grant Palmer.
“Guns, Germs, and Steel” by Jared Diamond.
“The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins.
“Consciousness Explained” by Daniel C. Dennett
“The Anatomy of Peace” by The Arbinger Institute
And I love to study biology and evolutionary science now.
and a bunch of other stuff.
So, some of this is church related, and some of this isn’t. All the Religious readings seemed to prompt unexplained questions, contradictions, questions “why this” or “why that?” Many of these books answered these questions for me. And the stuff I was concluding before I read these books, seemed only to be verified and supported by the scientific, historic, and general knowledge accepted throughout the world’s educated community.
So when I started doubting the church, which started about when I was on my mission. (I served in Argentina 1991-1993) It was just simple questions, like why does this say this or that here, but then says something seemingly the opposite here. All my life I was taught that “all things were created in their own sphere.” (Meaning each animal species was created separate from any other animal species.) That’s the way it was taught to me; and that’s the way I took it. So, when I started discovering how much evolution made sense when I watched shows about it on Discovery, I became upset that my Bible Dictionary stated that, prior to the “Fall of Adam” there was “no death, no children, and no sin” amongst “any of the earthly creations.” I knew from seminary that the “Fall of Adam” was about 6 thousand years ago. But I can go down to the dinosaur museum and see proof of death (dinosaur bones), children (dinosaur eggs), and well, I can’t really say anything about sin back then.
At this point, within myself, I was being torn apart; all my life I trusted the teachings of the church, the leaders of the church as sources of divine, irrefutible truths. Yet, I asked myself, how am I expected to sift out the erroneous information from the truthful information? What sources of church literature can I trust? So, then I began looking into all kinds of things that were interesting… the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook plates, the Spalding Manuscript, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, statements of the prophets that contradict teachings today (like the Adam/God theory), and the list goes on and on.
So, having looked forward to the Resurrection as the greatest possible gift I could expect, I now lost any reason to even expect that there’s life after death. I mean, if the only true church on the face of the earth is wrong, why would I expect any other church to be right? And what other church teaches that all men and women who don’t become son’s of perdition will be resurrected? What about the promises of Eternal Families? What else did I believe that wasn’t true? Did God himself even exist at all? And so I opened my mind up to the world of critical thinking and looking for any kind of evidence that would explain my life’s experiences. Was there any reason for me to believe in Spirits? If I could find a reason to believe in Spirits, I could at least have life after death… if not the resurrection.
But I set out on my quest with one goal in mind; I told myself I wouldn’t believe anything simply because I wanted it to be true. I wanted to believe it simply because it’s true and the evidence supports it.
Well, this hasn’t worked out so well with my wife. At times when I’m in a bad mood, I’d make snide remarks about the teachings of people in church. Like when someone concluded that the church is true because of some stupid unrelated experience that had nothing to do with whether the church was true or not and they were giving their testimony about it. This has over time seemed to facilitate a loss of feelings of affection and love from my spouse. I didn’t understand how she wouldn’t want to know about these things that seemed so clear to me after years of thought and pondering on the subjects.
But even when I asked her The Matrix question, “Would you take the blue pill or the red pill?”, her choice was not the same as mine. So in a way, I’m feeling like Neo, knowing that the world I grew up in isn’t as real as I thought, but the person I love is still immersed in that world. I still desire the blessings of the temple. I still desire an eternal family. I still desire the resurrection. But how can I fit in? How can I live up to the expectations of my wife and regain her love?
Recently she left me, taking my three young children with her to another state. So now I feel compelled to either resolve these issues I have with the church as fast as I can, as thoroughly as I can, or I’m going to end up being abandoned and alone. And as I’ve spent the last few months pondering my current state. I had to realize that prophets are human, and they don’t always speak the truth. Sure, the Book of Mormon isn’t a true, verifiable history of the Americas, but does that mean I can’t benefit from reading and pondering? Does my salvation, from the perspective of the church, really depend on my believing Joseph Smith was a prophet or the Book of Mormon actually coming from Golden Plates and being an authentic history? Or does the church teach that my salvation is dependant on my repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, having accepted Christ as my savior?
If it’s the later, then all I have to do is find a way to accept Christ as my savior. And then does it really matter anything else about the church? I know the leaders of the church would think so. They keep saying “It’s either all true, or none of it’s true.” But that’s so dualistic in thinking and doesn’t even make any sense. No set of teachings presented by humans can be 100% true. Even math books have mistakes. And if one teaching in the church is wrong, does that make all the teachings wrong? Of course not.
So, I decided, the problem I have with the church is that I’ve been holding too high of expectations of the prophets, of the Book of Mormon, of the church manuals, of the members of the church in general. And I’ve figured out how to separate “standards” from “expectations” from “goals”, etc. And if I lower my expectations, maybe I can accept the church into my life, but not so literal as before.
And that’s what I’m here to find out. Am I deceiving myself?
Welcome, fio. I hope you find what you need, and I hope we can help somehow. It sounds like you are on a path that will lead you there. My only advice right now:
Seek spirituality independent of the Church – as a personal pursuit. Let the Church be primarily a social place to fellowship and serve.
Welcome! For me, the Church is ‘true’ because it is useful —- not because it’s perfect or some pristine image of perfection, as I thought it was when I was a youth. Because it is useful, it has become beautiful to me.
HiJolly
(here’s my intro:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=174 Welcome figuring! We’re all “figuring it out”, so you are definitely amongst like-minded folk. Your intro was very succinct. One part I wasn’t sure about: did your wife leave because of the church stuff? If so, you’ll have a long, tough road. If there’s other issues involved, the path will be rocky but the potential is an amazing place, wherein love and acceptance can be found with true joy and intimacy.
Definitely check out the threads, especially in the support section. Your story is unique to you, but most of us here are/have been in a very, very similar place as you.
btw, my mission specs match yours. Hmmmm.
Hi, fio. I read your entire intro attentively, and I feel a close kinship to you. You have been through a lot. I think you are headed in the right direction. I second what Ray suggested. I can’t promise anything with regard to your wife or mine. I only know we must press forward on the path to personal honesty, healing, and love, keeping anger and blame at bay all the while. May I also suggest that your three young children need you? You mentioned Jesus Christ. When I consider his teachings in Luke and Matthew 5-7 together with the fact your wife has moved out of state with your children, I see an opportunity for you to forsake all for the Kingdom of Heaven, worry not about how you will feed or clothe yourself tomorrow, and seek, ask, and knock so you can be there to love your children. I’m not suggesting you harass or heckle your wife or fight with her, only that you place yourself very accessible to your children. Think of putting them to bed at night, receiving their morning hugs and kisses, and comforting their fears. They need you. Pray for that every day.
Figuring it out wrote:I trusted the teachings of the church, the leaders of the church as sources of divine, irrefutible truths.
We must stop fostering this feeling in our youth. This is harmful and wrong. “They are wise, experienced men who deserve our attention.”
Tom
Welcome Figuring It Out, Do you remember that optical illusion exercise common from so many years ago where different groups can be programmed to see the old lady’s face or the young lady’s back and turned head?
After a little programming, people can fight and argue all day, “Its an old lady” “What are you talking about, she’s young and beautiful” and on and on…until finally the paradigm shift happens and you realize, wow…neither is right or wrong, it is just a new way to view things!
That was the thought that came to me as I read your intro…allow yourself to step back and take a new look at things…I think you’ll find you don’t have to throw out all the good in the LDS church just because others view it differently or because you can’t see some things right now. I’ve been a member my whole life, and can’t believe how differently I view things now from how I viewed them even 9 months ago! I call that progress.
Glad to have you in our ranks! God bless you.
Heber13 wrote:Welcome Figuring It Out,
Do you remember that optical illusion exercise common from so many years ago where different groups can be programmed to see the old lady’s face or the young lady’s back and turned head?
After a little programming, people can fight and argue all day, “Its an old lady” “What are you talking about, she’s young and beautiful” and on and on…until finally the paradigm shift happens and you realize, wow…neither is right or wrong, it is just a new way to view things!
That was the thought that came to me as I read your intro…allow yourself to step back and take a new look at things…I think you’ll find you don’t have to throw out all the good in the LDS church just because others view it differently or because you can’t see some things right now. I’ve been a member my whole life, and can’t believe how differently I view things now from how I viewed them even 9 months ago! I call that progress.
Glad to have you in our ranks! God bless you.
Yes, Heber, that’s so true!HiJolly
Hi FIO, Welcome to our community. I hope we can help you out. We may not know all the answers, but we are an open sounding board.
I would highly recommend doing all you can to separate religious problems from relationship problems in your marriage (both you and your wife do this). It is important to identify what is happening. They can get very tangled and mixed at times. The solutions and conclusions depend on knowing really what the problems are about.
Quote:Yet, I asked myself, how am I expected to sift out the erroneous information from the truthful information?
Yes, this is a core question all human beings face. It’s also the core question in the JS story, interestingly. I often wonder whether it’s more useful to view JS as a pattern for a spiritual journey – you have questions, you go in search of answers, you look around you to authorities and family members, then you look to God, and you get different answers from each of those places. Maybe that’s the same story for all people. I think as LDS we are supposed to think that if you are LDS you go to God, and he says “You already have all the answers you need,” but I don’t think that’s how we grow and progress. Maybe when you go to God, you always get the unforeseen answer that forces you to question your assumptions and grow.
As to the marital issues, I would strongly urge you to put your marriage first in all situations. It’s easy to want to pick scabs and grind axes in your own home, which feels like your personal space in which you should be free to do whatever you want. But it can be very difficult to live with someone who is obsessed with picking scabs and who sees things differently than you do. In marriage, you always have to seek the common ground. Your wife must always know that you put her and your marriage first, and that your love for her has not diminished.
There is some great advice for mixed-faith marriages (and mixed levels of faith) at The Mormon Therapist. I encourage anyone in that situation to read what Dr. Helfer has to say.
http://mormontherapist.blogspot.com/http://mormontherapist.blogspot.com/” class=”bbcode_url”> hawkgrrrl wrote:I think as LDS we are supposed to think that if you are LDS
you go to God, and he says “You already have all the answers you need,”but I don’t think that’s how we grow and progress. Maybe when you go to God, you always get the unforeseen answer that forces you to question your assumptions and grow.
HAH!! I actually *had* that experience, for real. But rather than be a downer, it was really a cool experience. After all, it wasGodspeaking. Fixed *my* wagon, I’ll tell you! Wanna hear about it? HiJolly
hawkgrrrl wrote:Maybe when you go to God, you always get the unforeseen answer that forces you to question your assumptions and grow.
That sounds very zen-like, Hawkgrrrl. Its like going to God for an answer and instead getting another question.
swimordie wrote:…
did your wife leave because of the church stuff? If so, you’ll have a long, tough road.
…
Well, I don’t know for sure… she says it’s because of everything. When I am fixing one set of stuff about me, she then adds in the church stuff. I want to believe it’s things I can fix; but people who have been around the block tell me I’m not the one who broke things and only the person who broke things can fix it. And that person doesn’t seem to want to fix it. So, I think she doesn’t like the church issues; but they’re just an excuse to give her an out. If she really loved me, it wouldn’t matter. I can see that now that I’ve read some posts here of women who’s husbands have similar stances as mine. And it’s actually painful to read and see what I don’t have.
HiJolly wrote:Fixed *my* wagon, I’ll tell you! Wanna hear about it?
Ofcourse, HiJolly. Tell us a story. I love stories. By the way, ditto too for me on the further questions and the excitement about it.
Tom Haws wrote:HiJolly wrote:Fixed *my* wagon, I’ll tell you! Wanna hear about it?
Ofcourse, HiJolly. Tell us a story. I love stories. By the way, ditto too for me on the further questions and the excitement about it.
Gonna have to do it tomorrow night, or maybe Friday. And somewhere else, don’t want to derail FIO’s intro, you know?HiJolly
Figuring it out wrote:Well, I don’t know for sure… she says it’s because of everything. When I am fixing one set of stuff about me, she then adds in the church stuff. [SNIP] So, I think she doesn’t like the church issues; but they’re just an excuse to give her an out.
BINGO!
You might seriously need to consider professional marriage counseling. This is very common in our LDS world. Spouses don’t want to address real and serious relationship/personality problems and use religious issues to hide their own shortcomings.
A dear friend of mine is going through a divorce right now. His wife seemed like she was doing this (from what I heard, which was only his side though). Their Bishop and Stake President even met with her, and told her point blank they seriously doubted God would tell her to divorce her husband instead of working on the issues. She blamed it on an answer to her prayers, and that he was not “valiant” enough…
😥
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