I’m trying to be like Jesus…

[Anonymous]

As I am studying more about the historicity of Jesus, I’m letting go of many of my preconceived notions about him. But this study has also led me to some interesting thoughts. We often talk about becoming like our Savior, striving to emulate him, doing what He would do if on earth, and even asking ourselves the question, “what would Jesus do?” (WWJD).

Where does this sense of what it means to be Christ-like come from? Is it from a thorough study of the scriptures and history to understand the life of Jesus? I would posit no to that since we actually know very little about him. I propose that our sense of knowing “WWJD” comes mostly from our culture and an innate sense of right vs wrong. We know what it means to be loving and we can project that sense when striving to be like Him. But it actually has very little to do with understanding the actual man Jesus.

When we are trying to be like Jesus, we are merely trying to be a loving person and trying to be true to our own integrity and our own moral compass. There is some universality to what that entails, but a lot of individuality too, which is why two people can both be trying to emulate the Savior and have diverging views on something like gay marriage.

When we say the goal is to be more Christ-like, what do we mean? I think we simply mean try to do what you feel in your heart is right. And when you let go of the constructs of the church defining what that means for you, it is up to you to define that and be true to it.

[Anonymous]

DoubtingTom wrote:

When we say the goal is to be more Christ-like, what do we mean?

Good question.

I do not think it means I am going to try to fast for 40 days and nights in the wilderness, nor try to humble the pharisees with witty comments that leave them speechless.

For me…I take the general notion of all goodness in the universe…and embody that in a perfect Lord and Savior…and try to emulate the qualities that I can to be a better husband and father and person. Patience. Kindness. Devotion. Commitment to good things.

Karen Armstrong wrote some decent books on the idea of God…and even if God is just a symbol of something we hope for to motivate us…it still can motivate me.

It is less about knowing what Jesus did in specific circumstances, and more about what would i think a perfect person would do…and how can I try to be more like that? How can I progress, and stretch myself and learn to love more?

That’s what it means to me. Regardless if we are misquoting Jesus or not.

[Anonymous]

I think this is a good question. People typically act like Jesus never got angry, was immensely patient, etc, but I don’t find that always to be the case. He ripped the Pharisees, cleansed the temple, and could act very “unChristlike” on occasion. I think WWJD is hard to know sometimes.

In priesthood meeting, we talked about D&C 121 “no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by the priesthood…longsuffering, gentleness, patience” etc. I said that I often fall short of that ideal, and that as a parent, fear works. It can be hard. What do you do when you try “gentleness, persuasion” and that doesn’t work. I told a story where we were helping a family move into their house. My 8 year old son got tired of helping and sat in the car, while their children as young as 3 tried to carry stuff into the house. We tried persuasion to get my son to help, but he refused. So I said that he would have to sit on the naughty chair as long as he sat in the car when we got home.

Yes, it was a fear based approach. He helped half-heartedly. I do note that God uses fear based approaches in the Old Testament (floods, pestilences, wars) and certainly doesn’t seem to follow D&C 121 either. The group decided that it’s ok to impose consequences. “If you don’t repent, this bad thing will happen.” I’m not sure. Is that WWJD? I’m not sure.

[Anonymous]

DoubtingTom wrote:

When we say the goal is to be more Christ-like, what do we mean?

Do something more like I would do it.

Just kidding.

There are morals that represent ideals in the gospels, especially in the parables and sermon on the mount, but I think you’re on to something.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

For me…I take the general notion of all goodness in the universe…and embody that in a perfect Lord and Savior…and try to emulate the qualities that I can to be a better husband and father and person. Patience. Kindness. Devotion. Commitment to good things.

But where does your notion of goodness and perfection come from? Is it from your study and understanding of who Christ was or from your own conscience on what makes something good or not? And if it’s from your own conscience, where did that come from? Is it a product of your culture and upbringing or have you since developed your own moral compass that supercedes the mores you were raised with?

These are difficult questions and I don’t pretend to think anyone is free entirely from being a product of their culture. But I think if we are honest with ourselves, when we think about what it means to be Christ-like, we will realize our notions of what that entails come much more from within than from without. And then we must wrestle with the question of why we have the values we have and where our sense of what an “ideal being” would do comes from.

This is all just food for thought for me right now. New ideas as I deconstruct and reconstruct my faith.

[Anonymous]

My biggest struggle is people not following my Jesus. Enough said.

[Anonymous]

DoubtingTom wrote:

But where does your notion of goodness and perfection come from? Is it from your study and understanding of who Christ was

yes. That is why studying the scriptures can be important. However…I accept the limitations of the scriptures on really accurately portraying Christ as he really was. Therefore….

Quote:

or from your own conscience on what makes something good or not?

Yes…I need this and don’t how how to not use the filter I have. I only try to check it, clean it, repent and focus it as much as I can…but I still use my own conscience, and accept the limitations of my own lens, even while I use it best I can. I live with imperfection to finding Jesus, because that is what we have in this world to go by.

Quote:

And if it’s from your own conscience, where did that come from? Is it a product of your culture and upbringing or have you since developed your own moral compass that supercedes the mores you were raised with?

Yes. My upbringing plays a huge role, and so does the culture I was raised in. And as I find new information that seems to elevate my moral compass towards goodness…anything I judge as “better” will supercede what I started with. And judging “better” is an imperfect thing of which can be a moving target for me. I accept that and own that.

Quote:

But I think if we are honest with ourselves, when we think about what it means to be Christ-like, we will realize our notions of what that entails come much more from within than from without. And then we must wrestle with the question of why we have the values we have and where our sense of what an “ideal being” would do comes from.

Exactly. Well said.

And after spending time in my head thinking about all of that…I go to church and practice how to deal with others who judge it differently in their heads for their own reasons…whether they use the same approach I do or not. Others are not wired like I am. My line of thinking drives others nuts sometimes (ok…most of the time :crazy: ). But it is who I am and I can make it work for me better than wishing I was more like other people. I want to compare myself to the “idea” and not to other imperfect people trying to do what I’m doing in their own way.

I think I’m better off as part of the group than to ponder these things in isolation forever. I need people like DT to check my thinking.

It becomes the struggle mom3 just mentioned.

In many ways…I’m very agnostic. I don’t think we can really ever know truly what Jesus is like or what he would do. We all just have our opinions about it. But that is not meaningless if our opinions are driving us to elevate ourselves and those around us to better things, and call it what we will.

If I’m orthoprax, I just focus on getting to good actions…less concerned with how anyone gets there.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

My biggest struggle is people not following my Jesus. Enough said.

Good one, Mom. What was that about witty comments and the Pharisees?

More seriously, for me the idea of what Jesus stood for does come from the scriptures. Granted there is very little of his ministry recorded there and we don’t know the accuracy of any of it. Even when the gospels are in harmony, we have to take into account that Luke and Matthew are both really based on Mark and probably a mysterious other source which may have also influenced Mark. Thank goodness for John, but his account is also skewed and leaves out some really big stuff. That said, I think the message we can get from the gospels, even though skewed and even though some of the stuff is probably made up or embellished, is that Jesus was basically a nice guy and had compassion on people. I think trying to be like Jesus is trying to be nice.

FWIW, many of the cultural religious beliefs about Jesus – son of God, sinless, etc. – I do not find evidence for in the scriptures and I’m not sure I believe them.

[Anonymous]

There are lots of ways to view Jesus. Here’s one:

Jesus was a historical figure, just a guy that gained some popularity. Some time after his death and after some stories were disseminated throughout the region some philosophers got together, made a collection of the conventional wisdom of their day (whether it was related to Jesus or otherwise), and attributed it all to Jesus. Then they piggy-backed on Jesus’ name to spread their philosophy far and wide.

I’m not saying that’s what went down, this is only an alternate narrative for the sake of argument.

Over time the myths and legends grew and people decided to do a bit of pruning to make sure the story of Jesus better represented an ideal. We got rid of the stories where kid Jesus withered one of his peers to death for splashing in a puddle. We got rid of the stories where kid Jesus commanded some other kid to die (and they did) when the kid bumped into him. When the parents of the dead kid came to complain he blinded them. We omitted lots of kid Jesus stories from the global narrative because those stories made Jesus look like the kid in that one Twilight Zone episode. Infinite power given to someone that wasn’t mature enough to wield it.

But we nixed those stories from the narrative because they aren’t the ideal. The Council of Nicaea? People decided who Jesus was then and we still do it today.

[Anonymous]

WWJD = “Be the better you”

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

WWJD = “Be the better you”

That’s all? Is that good enough?

What’s better…shoot for perfection and come up short, or set lower targets and hit it 100% of the time?

(hope that didn’t sound rude. just tongue and cheek and a serious thought question. Maybe I need to try the green smoothie thing mom3 talks about :sick: )

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

LookingHard wrote:

WWJD = “Be the better you”

That’s all? Is that good enough?

What’s better…shoot for perfection and come up short, or set lower targets and hit it 100% of the time?

(hope that didn’t sound rude. just tongue and cheek and a serious thought question. Maybe I need to try the green smoothie thing mom3 talks about :sick: )

All kidding aside, I think that is it. I don’t think God expects perfection, I think he gives it. I think he just wants us to do the best we can. I admittedly fall short of that – but as my idol* says “Have any of us done all that we can do?”

*If you have to ask, his initials are DFU.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

LookingHard wrote:

WWJD = “Be the better you”

That’s all? Is that good enough?

What’s better…shoot for perfection and come up short, or set lower targets and hit it 100% of the time?

(hope that didn’t sound rude. just tongue and cheek and a serious thought question. Maybe I need to try the green smoothie thing mom3 talks about :sick: )

I was saying it more as “chose the higher road”, not the pressure to be perfect.

[Anonymous]

I’m trying to do the right thing, and Jesus is the epitome of that.

I certainly am not trying to anger the political and religious powers that be so much that they decide to kill me.

[Anonymous]

DoubtingTom wrote:

…We often talk about becoming like our Savior, striving to emulate him, doing what He would do if on earth, and even asking ourselves the question, “what would Jesus do?” (WWJD)…Where does this sense of what it means to be Christ-like come from? Is it from a thorough study of the scriptures and history to understand the life of Jesus? I would posit no to that since we actually know very little about him. I propose that our sense of knowing “WWJD” comes mostly from our culture and an innate sense of right vs wrong. We know what it means to be loving and we can project that sense when striving to be like Him. But it actually has very little to do with understanding the actual man Jesus… When we say the goal is to be more Christ-like, what do we mean?

The gospels actually have quite a few very specific examples of what Jesus reportedly said and did in many different situations, certainly more than we have even for many much more recent historical figures. For example, if we take these accounts at face value then Jesus openly criticized the Pharisees, drove the money changers out of the temple, picked grain on the Sabbath (Luke 6:1-2), basically told Martha there were more important things than working all the time, etc. So it’s really not all that mysterious to get a fairly good idea of what Jesus was like based on these accounts even to the point of guessing at how he would probably react in specific cases nowadays.

The interesting thing about this to me is that it looks like if there was one thing Jesus was not he definitely wasn’t all about conformity, always playing it safe, and just going along with what other people around him were doing. In fact it makes perfect sense, in context, why some of the local authorities would have seen him as a troublemaker even to the point of having him executed as if he was a common criminal but I guess that’s the main reason we hear about him today because he was revolutionary and didn’t just keep quiet about ideas that challenged the conventional wisdom at the time. That’s why I think it’s safe to say that worrying about things like white shirts, facial hair, how many earrings women are wearing, etc. would be way out of character for Jesus as he is described in the New Testament but certainly concerns like this are very much in character for typical old men from a relatively corporate/bureaucratic background.

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