In 30 words or less, what does Stage 5 mean to you?

[Anonymous]

I think it depends on the depth of the conundrum. Some conundrums are not as angst-producing as others — they are intersting philosophical questions among men of goodwill (quoting Hearts in Atlantis). Others strike at your core — unequivocal statements about standards of commandments, for example, which, if not followed, don’t allow you to participate in life events with your family, or condemn you to a lower kingdom. Or, that outright mean a loss of salvation.

For some, it even results in public shaming, although I think shaming is a harsh word. These are hard to resolve.

Again, I think the answers may be found in “fixing your wanter”. Decide that you don’t want the temple experience if they won’t let you have it on what you think are reasonable terms that you feel good about. Accept that giving the priesthood to your son is not everything, and that it can be a meaningful experience if someone else does it.

[Anonymous]

I agree with a lot of that, SD, and perhaps we’re saying a lot of the same thing, but I think stage 5 is more positive than how I feel your words express it. It is not about recognizing that it sucks, but you find a way to deal with it.

I think it is finding the new paradigm that makes you embrace it fully, and see the beauty and value inherent in having faith.

SilentDawning wrote:

1. Reinterpret traditionally held beliefs and policies in a way that brings you peace, through parsing.

Agree, if we are stating that reinterpreting is more like rediscovering new ideas, not parsing to be tricky or dishonest or force the square peg in the round hole, but truly seeing there is deeper and more rich interpretations than thought of before.

SilentDawning wrote:

2. Set boundaries and lessen your service in areas that are agnst-producing.

Less about limiting and setting more boundaries, more about broadening horizons, including allowing yourself to tell others that boundaries are reasonable to have (if that makes sense). Increasing service in areas that produce more faith.

SilentDawning wrote:

3. Really get down to personal prayer, and come to an understanding between yourself and the Lord what being a Christian and a Mormon really means to you — and live that.

…yes…and that being Mormon means seriously respecting and working to understand how the leaders and those around you suggest what Christianity and Mormonism is, and trying to engage and be a part of the group’s shared values, while staying true to the personal interpretations.

SilentDawning wrote:

4. Distance yourself from the tiring/objectionable aspects of Church service and focus on character and family development — using those parts of the Church that help you get to that end. De-intensify the other parts from your life.

The tiring/objectionable aspects become less tiring/objectionable as you focus on the parts that help build your faith…in some ways, it is intensifying parts of your life. I’m not sure I see “distancing yourself” as part of stage 5, because it is all part of the experience, and therefore cannot be distanced. Perhaps I’m not getting your meaning on that part. Perhaps you are describing focus and attention…not distance and location.

SilentDawning wrote:

5. Stop beleiving the extreme claims of our religion and relate to it as a temporal organization. As DA once said, the whole thing often makes a lot more sense and reduces disappointment when you finally make that leap.

I disagree. Reducing the faith to make it less disappointing is the negative tone I think is drawn in stage 4 because it is hard to see another logical option. Stage 5 is the breakthrough that there is another option. The extreme claims can be valid…in so many ways.

SilentDawning wrote:

6. Fix your wanter. Stop wanting all the things the Church says we should want after deep introspection, study and prayer. Many of them are unverifiable anyway.

No, I don’t think this is stage 5 at all. Be open to all the things the Church says…and more. Don’t wait to verify good before you let good bless your life. Good is good. Seek it all.

SilentDawning wrote:

7. Get on your own clock as fast as possible; recognize you are in control of your relationshipw with God, and have freedom to choose.

Freedom to choose is great, control of relationship with God is the key as well as realizing the relationship can be far stronger when shared with others and through others in church, in our family, or in the community…but it doesn’t need to be fast, and your “own” clock is just as good as others’ clocks…or better yet…clocks are less important.

I may only being saying the glass is more half full than half empty on some of these, but I really think the key mindshift is wanting to re-engage with others and realizing we get strengthened with others, not dragged down like crabs in a bucket. While there is a freedom to looking inward with interpretations and meaning…stage 5 is not limiting or restricting what the church and community has to offer us to enhance our inward interpretations. Paradox is comfortable, and preferred because it can be richer. Relish the whole experience… good, bad or indifferent.

I think it is not about putting blinders on to protect yourself from disappointment, but more about looking at the picture that you thought was a vase, and now see there is also a different picture of 2 faces facing towards each other. Once you see that, you can’t go back to only seeing the vase, you can’t trick your mind into not seeing the 2 faces, and you don’t need to find words to pretend the vase is the right answer so you can fit in with friends. You don’t need to distance yourself from the “vase” people, because you agree with them they are right. You just realize its pretty cool that there are 2 valid ways to see the picture… and those that only see it one way are not wrong, and while you remember when you saw it that way with them…you can’t go back now to only see it that way.

[Anonymous]

This is highlighting what I felt was true all along — succinct definitions vary wildly, and that’s why Stage 5 has been so difficult to understand.

To some it simply means peace in or out of the Church. To others it means more traditional LDS behavior but for different, and perhaps even better reasons. For others, it’s just a state of peace whether fully believing the gospel in a traditional way or not — in the Church or not. For some, Stage 5 is simply a state of peace in spite of formerly angst-producing qualities of our religion. This brand of Stage 5 is achieved by whatever means are most meaningful to the individual, potentially with no attachment to traditional LDS behavior.

I would think the goal of a site like this would be to encourage others to feel at peace while being active in the Church in some capacity — in spite of concerns they may have. Or, at a minimum feel enough peace to prevent them from resigning, or turning their back altogether on our religion. However, that’s just me connecting Fowler to my own interpretation of the the mission of this site.

Regarding Heber’s comments — I think his comments fall more into the “largely traditional LDS behavior but for different and perhaps even better reasons” category. However, even within that framework there is room for big differences in approach.

For me, the idea of setting boundaries, distancing onself from certain aspects of our religion seems highly appropriate, even if it’s a “half-empty” or even somewhat negative approach. This is because my personality is such that self-protectionism is an important part of being happy. I have tried for decades to walk alongside the often callous, uncaring and harsh behavior of others in the Church, to forgive and reintegrate. However, this takes enormous levels of effort. It has been largely unsuccessful. The only real effective technique for overcoming is the passage of time which heals the wound — and even then, it is there, latent.

So, for me, circling the wagons on certain aspects of our religion, and reducing close interactions with harsh people is an important gateway to allowing other aspects of my testimony and commitment to flourish. BeLikeChrist understands this, and I think others who suffer from the same kind of orientation as I do may well agree. I think there comes a point when after several decades of experiences, you accept who you are, and have to create a work-around. So, self-protectionism, boundaries, and acceptance of my own unique warts and flaws is a core value in my brand of Stage 5. So, in this respect, Heber and I are not in full agreement.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think there comes a point when after several decades of experiences, you accept who you are, and have to create a work-around.

I don’t mean this to be flippant in any way, SD, but after reading your last comment, my summary would be:

Quote:

For SD, Stage 5 is about understanding himself and doing whatever it takes for him to be at peace in the Church, even if it different than what works for others.

The structure of your peace will be different than mine, Heber’s, Brian’s, Hawk’s, cwald’s, etc. – but the central definition seems to be the same. It’s accepting the differences of others that is the key.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I agree with a lot of that, SD, and perhaps we’re saying a lot of the same thing, but I think stage 5 is more positive than how I feel your words express it. It is not about recognizing that it sucks, but you find a way to deal with it…I think it is finding the new paradigm that makes you embrace it fully, and see the beauty and value inherent in having faith.

SilentDawning wrote:

4. Distance yourself from the tiring/objectionable aspects of Church service and focus on character and family development — using those parts of the Church that help you get to that end. De-intensify the other parts from your life.

The tiring/objectionable aspects become less tiring/objectionable as you focus on the parts that help build your faith…in some ways, it is intensifying parts of your life. I’m not sure I see “distancing yourself” as part of stage 5, because it is all part of the experience, and therefore cannot be distanced. Perhaps I’m not getting your meaning on that part. Perhaps you are describing focus and attention…not distance and location.

SilentDawning wrote:

5. Stop beleiving the extreme claims of our religion and relate to it as a temporal organization. As DA once said, the whole thing often makes a lot more sense and reduces disappointment when you finally make that leap.

I disagree. Reducing the faith to make it less disappointing is the negative tone I think is drawn in stage 4 because it is hard to see another logical option. Stage 5 is the breakthrough that there is another option. The extreme claims can be valid…in so many ways.

SilentDawning wrote:

6. Fix your wanter. Stop wanting all the things the Church says we should want after deep introspection, study and prayer. Many of them are unverifiable anyway.

No, I don’t think this is stage 5 at all. Be open to all the things the Church says…and more. Don’t wait to verify good before you let good bless your life. Good is good. Seek it all.

I think separating personal beliefs from official Church teachings, lowering your expectations of others, and realizing that the Church is basically an imperfect human organization sometimes helps people to move toward a Stage 5 mindset in cases where unrealistic optimism about the organization and Church members is no longer possible. It seems like the typical Stage 4 reaction is often to simply replace one set of false certainties with another and jump to conclusions that not only is the Church not what it claims to be but that it is supposedly so wrong and harmful that it’s not acceptable for anyone else to believe in it either whereas those with a Stage 5 outlook are more likely to keep it in perspective and try to separate the good from the bad and avoid “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” In my opinion, SilentDawning has the right idea with his list of possible ways to reduce some of the frustration if you want to remain actively involved with the Church but don’t agree with some of the things it continues to do and say.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

It’s accepting the differences of others that is the key.

I agree with this.

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

those with a Stage 5 outlook are more likely to keep it in perspective and try to separate the good from the bad and avoid “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.”

I agree with this view as well.

SilentDawning wrote:

So, self-protectionism, boundaries, and acceptance of my own unique warts and flaws is a core value in my brand of Stage 5. So, in this respect, Heber and I are not in full agreement.

…I think, SD, we are probably not in full agreement, as I don’t see it as self-protectionism, boundaries, or self-awareness. But perhaps with your experiences, that is what stage 5 is for you.

Quote:

Stage 5 faith: “…doesn’t matter what you call it. Whether you call it God or Jesus or Cosmic Flow or Reality or Love, it doesn’t matter what you call it. It is there. And what you learn directly from that source will not tie you up in creeds….that separate you from your fellow man.” ( p. 192). So the Stage 5 person in Fowler’s system is learning how to reengage with some type of faith that is beyond their rational control, can recognize the partial truths that any given religious tradition might offer but may choose to re-engage with it anyway. He can appreciate and recognize symbols as such, without holding to their literal meaning and is committed to a form of justice that extends to those outside the confines of tribe, class, religious community or nation.

My emphasis of Stage 5 is about re-engaging with a new view, which can be a traditional view for better reasons, but also a very non-traditional view of things outside the tribe. It is not protectionism from the tribe, but faith with hope of growing beyond oneself by conjoining with others inside or outside the tribe because we become more developed as we open up…not close up…from myth and truth that is out there, even if it is puzzling or repellent to us.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think, SD, we are probably not in full agreement, as I don’t see it as self-protectionism, boundaries, or self-awareness. But perhaps with your experiences, that is what stage 5 is for you.

Yes, the depression I suffered that was triggered by some of my Church experiences, and the huge gap between its ideals and its behavior kind of got me. I can’t go back to it. So, for me, the peace in Stage 5 is enabled by first providing defences against those areas of Church experience that disturb the healing wound.

However, at the same time, I focus on those areas that are strengthening, allow coping, peace and spirituality.

I look at it as if I am a nation. Once friendly relationships with outside powers (the Church in this analogy) led to conflict. This wore down my resiliance, hurt the relationship, tore apart the units of the domestic country. The conflict have me considering breaking diplomatic ties. So, I disengage from those areas that cuased conflict, and keep them at bay. At the same time, trying to build positivity toward other aspects of the relationship with the foreign country.

So, boundary setting and self-protectionism is like an enabling step toward greater unity in the domestic market, and eventually, perhaps a willingness to engage on those previously sensitive issues with the foreign power. But not yet — when the wounds have healed, perhaps, or maybe never.

[Anonymous]

SD, do you feel you are engaging at church with those boundaries, or are you withdrawing to protect yourself based on your experiences?

I know you still go with your kids and wife, right? But when you go, are you engaged, or are you just tolerating it best you can?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

For me, Stage 5 is elusive. Fowler’s description is thick. So, if you feel you understand, or even partly understand Stage 5, what does it mean in 30 words or less?

You realize this is all just an illusional game… each picks their own illusions… the winners are those who have the most fun!

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Quote:

There are LDS who left the Church and never returned who think in a stage 5 framework.

So, Brian — what does their Stage 5 statement sound like? If you can envision someone other than yourself who feels they have achieved that stage?

I’m not going to try and make a 30 word statement for other people, but here is an example that comes to mind immediately.

Example:

One person I know quite well resigned from the Church a year or so ago. They didn’t believe any of it anymore, and really were not interested in being a part of the Church. They aren’t angry. They just really don’t care. Someone asked them to perform a baby blessing (a long story, don’t want to distract from my point) but not in and LDS context or official capacity. This guy jumped right into character and gave one of the best baby blessings I have ever heard. He meant every word of it in a nice way, and was glad to do something nice for the mother who wanted this done. We discussed a format together, and it was important for him not to say he did this by the Melchizedek Priesthood because that is Mormon and he is no longer a member. He appreciates the symbol, meaning and good feelings created by religion. He just doesn’t care about it being true. In fact, he doesn’t believe it is real in the metaphysical sense. He just acknowledges that it makes people happy, and is happy for them and with them.

That seems very Stage 5 to me.

There’s another guy that comes to mind. He left the Church 5 years ago, or so, if I remember correctly. He will be one of the short-talk speakers at the Mormon Stories regional conference I am helping to organize this weekend. He seems to have a very similar attitude. He doesn’t believe. He left. But he talks fondly about most aspects of his past experience in the Church. He can dive right into character, but just isn’t concerned with being a part of it anymore. He believes he needed to leave in order keep moving along. Based on what he has told me about some of his life experiences in the Church, and his family dynamics, I have to agree (or at least support his decision).

[Anonymous]

Good examples Brian.

One thing to remember on this, is it is Fowlers theory on Stages of Faith…not stages of dealing with problems or pain. So the theory is trying to capture what people go through in developing faith at different levels or stages. I think some people can leave church while still having faith, it just is not a faith bound by a group…but it is still a conjunctive faith in something that works for them.

[Anonymous]

Looking at this from a slightly different angle and speaking in broad generalities that just hit me:

Stage 3 = “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.”

People in Stage 3 tend to see evidence that proves their beliefs and perspectives all around them – and assume they are looking at the only answer page in the textbook. The “hoped for” fades into the background of the “evidence” that makes them assume they actually do see the (for most people) un-seeable.

Stage 4 = “Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.”

People in Stage 4 tend to minimize the substance and evidence to imaginary things – things people “hope for” but can’t see – and, therefore, tend to reject them as not really substance and evidence in any “real” or “objective” way. Without “reality” and “objectivity”, faith loses power for them.

Stage 5 = “Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

People in Stage 5 tend to accept the idea that there is substance that is important, since they accept hope in the unseen as good, powerful, motivating, etc. They tend to “allow all men the same privilege” – being focused on substance over exact evidence. Therefore, they tend to not care all that much about the details – the “evidence”, since they are aware of how limited their view is. Since they don’t invest emotionally at a high level in “evidence” and “objective answers”, changing evidence doesn’t bug them nearly as much as it does those in Stage 3 and Stage 4.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

btw – the ME podcasts with Borough is THE BEST “staylds” interview I’ve ever heard. Seriously. Really really good, and makes me want to go back to church. Check it out friends.

I hate to ask such a newbie question, but what is ME? I know MS (mormon stories), but I can’t find out what ME is.

[Anonymous]

PiperAlpha wrote:

SD, do you feel you are engaging at church with those boundaries, or are you withdrawing to protect yourself based on your experiences?

Quote:

I think those boundaries prevent me from staying home altogether. The things I dread are the opening exercises in priesthood where you feel pressured to move people, drive 80 minutes to set up chairs, get requests to attend seminary at 6 am because they want a man in the building, and sometimes get a wrangling about lack of home teaching in the Ward — when I did mine last month.

Quote:

I know you still go with your kids and wife, right? But when you go, are you engaged, or are you just tolerating it best you can?

This tends to vary from Sunday to Sunday. On Sundays where the teacher in HP group allows for interaction, expression of ideas, and sharing, and the topic is interesting, I learn something, I feel engaged. Today was one such day when I got to share some ideas by Gerald Lund and Cleon Skousen about the last days. When my children are involved in speaking, or presentations, I’m engaged. When I initiate conversation with people about things that really matter to either of us, and they engage in a meaningful conversation, I’m engaged. This happens about 30-40% of the time. And I think it’s facilitated by the fact that I have made a decision not to get roped into the onerous kinds of service I did constantly for the first 2.5 decades of my membership in the Church. So, the boundaries stop me from dreading the experience of going to Church, so these things can take over.

[Anonymous]

I admire that you still engage and keep going. Thanks for sharing, SD.

[Author]

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