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Heber13 wrote:
I admire that you still engage and keep going. Thanks for sharing, SD.
Thanks Heber. Most people would write me off…I appreciate the affirmation.
By way of engagement — this evening a woman put on a Faith in God activity that my wife insisted we go to. Well-organized, fun, everyone participated, and I ended up playing basketball with my son afterwards. It was an example of someone doing their calling well to the benefit of others that strengthened my family. And I didn’t mind the takedown of the event either, even though I’ve done it many times…it was time well investsed overall and I felt grateful for the effort put into the evening.
Perhaps you heard my story about the Church being like a restaurant that serves hamburgers. We hound the customers who used to come to return to us again because of the the great hamburgers we have. When they come, they find we are out of them, or they are so poorly prepared they don’t find them attractive.
Well, tonight there were hamburgers. Hamburgers are engaging. More hamburgers!!!
In 30 words or less, what does Stage 5 mean to you? Stage Five means I no longer categorize things in terms of step-wise development.
Or, maybe that was Stage Four, in which case there would be no Stage Fi….
wjclerk wrote:I hate to ask such a newbie question, but what is ME? I know MS (mormon stories), but I can’t find out what ME is.
ME = Mormon Expression Podcast
Website
http://mormonexpression.com/ It’s a good podcast. It’s different than Mormon Stories. ME is a panel discussion, usually, and is seldom a straight one-on-one interview like Mormon Stories. It also tends to drift in the much less believing end of the spectrum. They try to have a mixture of people on the panels though when possible. I’ve been on the panel in 3 episodes with them in the past.
FWIW, there’s also another panel-discussion podcast called Mormon Matters. It a part of the larger Open Stories Foundation (which produces Mormon Stories and other projects). Dan Wotherspoon does a good job putting these together. They are more in the direction of being respectful of faithful positions, even though they don’t shy away from tough topics and views.
Website:
http://www.mormonmatters.org Quote:cwald wrote:
the ME podcasts with Borough is THE BEST “staylds” interview I’ve ever heard. Seriously. Really really good, and makes me want to go back to church. Check it out friends.
Where do I find this podcast? I looked on “Additional Support Resources” but did not see it. Am I blind or is it somewhere else?Dash, here is the link. http://mormonexpression.com/http://mormonexpression.com/” class=”bbcode_url”> Maybe ME is a little edgy for the StayLDS website, but maybe it should be linked. I personally think it is a honest, logical and rational approach to the faith.
As far as the question on stage 5. I really think peace IS THE purpose of life – the goal. If one can remain in the church and find that peace and live a stage 3 or a stage 5, than fantastic. If one gets stuck in stage 4 and needs to disengage from the church to find that peace, than do so. Now is that stage 5? I don’t know —- but if that is what it takes to get out of the shadow of stage 4, do it. You will do yourself, your family and society a great service finding peace rather than stumbling around in a perpetual stage 4.
Quote:You will do yourself, your family and society a great service finding peace rather than stumbling around in a perpetual stage 4.
Amen. Stage 4 fundamentally is cancerous – since bitterness never was happiness. (How’s that?
🙂 ) Stage 4 needs treatment, and if the only treatment is to excise the cause of the bitterness, it needs to be done. For people who are in toxic situations in the Church, leaving active involvement (even if temporarily) can be important – as long as they are working on figuring out what they really believe and progressing from there. Leaving without doing so just means moving the boundaries and remaining in Stage 4 – which, again, is cancerous. It also just calcifies a Stage 3 mentality into a Stage 4 outlook – and that, frankly, is the most cancerous of all situations (perpetual bitterness accompanied by certainty that kills any chance of change and growth [i.e., repentance]).My advice – not easy, but doable and worth every effort:
Search for internal peace – then go where that peace leads you. It’s possible for many to walk that journey within the LDS Church, no matter their background – but it’s not possible for others. Don’t leave formally unless it is absolutely necessary for healing and the acquisition of peace, but work out your own “activity level” that works for you. “Men are that they might have joy,” and “Peace, I leave with you,” are deeply meaningful statements, but the operative word is “might”. (I also really like, “Be still, and know that I am God” – since it requires us to slow down and act consciously and slowly.)
There is no guarantee as to timing, but it is possible, I believe, for almost everyone. Some can have it without much effort; those of us who are here don’t have that luxury. Otoh, it might mean a little more to us when we find it, since we had to work a little harder to do so.
Quote:Don’t leave formally unless it is absolutely necessary for healing and the acquisition of peace, but work out your own “activity level” that works for you. “Men are that they might have joy,” and “Peace, I leave with you,” are deeply meaningful statements, but the operative word is “might”. (I also really like, “Be still, and know that I am God” – since it requires us to slow down and act consciously and slowly.)
I agree wholeheartedly with this one. I think sometimes people leave completely because they want the experience of giving some backlash to the priesthood leaders or “The Church” — or perhaps a way of venting their issues with the Church through the process. Generally, this falls on deaf ears, and after the grandstanding is over, they feel a sense of loss. I have thought about name-removal many times, but it ends after I reflect on how much harder it will be to get back into full-activity if I do so. The Church sure does take its time with someone who leaves and wants back into formal membership.
I had another thought on this topic. I’ve been reading Siddhartha for the first time. In the book, Siddhartha is a spiritual young man from a wealthy family. Everyone sees in him great potential. He convinces his father to let him live with the ascetics who live in poverty, beg for their food (which is still common among Thai Buddhists), do long fasts, and meditate for long periods of time. After a couple years he realizes that all these processes to fight against the self lead back to the self over and over again in a cycle. He then hears about a Buddha, a truly enlightened person whose every movement embodies enlightenment and charity for all beings. He goes to study this man, and he sees that he truly is enlightened, someone to be emulated. This Buddha is surrounded by disciples who want to listen to his teachings. He goes to the Buddha to explain why he cannot become one of his followers. He says that while the Buddha possesses wisdom, the one thing his teachings lack is the experience of personally attaining wisdom firsthand. So Siddhartha has to continue on his way. He also sees that the Buddha’s disciples are so caught up in the teachings that they have built their lives on teachings, not on experience and learning. To me, stage 5 is walking away from teachings and counter-teachings to find one’s own truth. It’s the internal state, not whether one is in or out of a specific church, that marks that path. Stage 4, conversely, entails counter-teachings. It’s like teenagerdom, finding the cracks in what you thought was solid and rejecting it for its opposite. It’s giving up one flawed teacher for anyone teaching that it was false.
Discovering the limits of all teachings is the first step in the path to stage 5.
hawkgrrrl wrote:He also sees that the Buddha’s disciples are so caught up in the teachings that they have built their lives on teachings, not on experience and learning.
To me, stage 5 is walking away from teachings and counter-teachings to find one’s own truth. It’s the internal state, not whether one is in or out of a specific church, that marks that path.
I really like this, Hawkgrrrl. Thanks for sharing.
I also think, along these lines, what one finds is that while it becomes internal, and “one’s own truth” – there is much which overlaps and compliments the existing teachings, because it expands them. So the internal state fits into the social settings, not isolates or shields one from it.
In other words, when one finds that line of truth that really works and no longer is angst and pain and disappointment, you can re-engage with others, whether that is in or out of the church…but it doesn’t require isolationism.
I like Elder Poelman’s original conference talk (before it was edited) where he says you eventually are no longer dependent on church programs, because you are focused on gospel truths. That speaks to me about stage 5.
Quote:I like Elder Poelman’s original conference talk (before it was edited) where he says you eventually are no longer dependent on church programs, because you are focused on gospel truths. That speaks to me about stage 5.
I listened to the talk, but I never saw how you are no longer dependent on Church programs — can anyone give their interpretation of what he meant, and particularly, an example?
I think the Duty to God program and YW program are both examples. They are designed to help teach youth principles of the gospel, and if you get chances to do service and other activities and check off the requirements, you can achieve awards. These help motivate youth, while giving them a chance to learn application of true principles they can apply later in their life. But they are just programs. They get changed frequently, and nothing in these programs are absolute truths or requirements for a person to develop. They just help. They can be abused and over-emphasized, or emphasis placed on advancement instead of the lessons being taught. There can be recognition given, or guilt, around doing or not doing these things.
But in the grand scheme of things…they can only matter if they help change the heart of the youth or leaders involved. Receiving DTG or not receiving DTG does not in and of itself make a difference. My one daughter was motivated to speed through and get her YW award at 14, my other daughter didn’t finish hers. I see no difference in my daughters around spirituality or testimony. Youth outside the church can develop some of these same lessons without following these programs, or through programs developed that are similar. Because the programs themselves aren’t what’s important…it is what an individual does to experience and learn from the programs. The programs are just there as one way an organization can help the individuals (even if people in the church start to look at them as requirements for everyone).
To me, its the same with other church programs. Go on a mission, don’t go on a mission…it doesn’t determine one’s place with God or skills developed…it is just one way to gain some experiences…and there are other ways to do it.
Heber13 wrote:hawkgrrrl wrote:He also sees that the Buddha’s disciples are so caught up in the teachings that they have built their lives on teachings, not on experience and learning.
To me, stage 5 is walking away from teachings and counter-teachings to find one’s own truth. It’s the internal state, not whether one is in or out of a specific church, that marks that path.
I really like this, Hawkgrrrl. Thanks for sharing.
This rings true for me, too. Thanks, hawkgrrrl.
But here’s the rub, as I see it from my stage 4 perspective: this can work great in a vacuum, but as part of an organized religion, how do you do the ‘walking away’ part, except in complete secrecy? It seems like a catch-22 to me. Maybe you have to leave the fold, reset your priorities, and then return if you want, because the upheaval involved in making the transition won’t be tolerated in public.
I’ve never had to leave – and I know lots of other members who are solidly in Stage 5, with varying outlooks that are non-traditional, who also didn’t have to leave. The difficulty varies almost entirely on the local unit / family, imo. Quote:as part of an organized religion, how do you do the ‘walking away’ part, except in complete secrecy? It seems like a catch-22 to me. Maybe you have to leave the fold, reset your priorities, and then return if you want, because the upheaval involved in making the transition won’t be tolerated in public.
Well, there’s no upheaval associated with Siddhartha’s actions. Buddhism is a very internal pursuit, so that’s probably part of it. My own experience is that the church finds authenticity refreshing, perhaps because it’s rare for people to be in touch with their own thoughts vs. just giving the standard answers. Actually the pursuit of wisdom is always individual. One aspect of Siddhartha’s journey that is very much like Mormonism is the focus on one’s own experience vs. getting caught up in the teachings. The thing is, there are people at all levels in the church who focus on the safety of the teachings vs. the personal quest for wisdom.
hawkgrrrl wrote:[The thing is, there are people at all levels in the church who focus on the safety of the teachings vs. the personal quest for wisdom.
You have to keep your mouth shut. It’s an eternal principle in Stage 5. Otherwise you get into trouble at Church.
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