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Godlives wrote:Quote:
One more point: If I were to work on a film as a cinematographer for let’s say “Braveheart.” Let’s say I filmed the sex scene in this movie. This is one small part of many other scenes in the movie. If I were to tell the bishop I could get “excommunicated.” But if I was making a sculpture of a nude body, would I be treated the same? Please explain the difference to me. Also, does a member get “excommunicated” for watching Braveheart? But the filmmaker could. Just my feelings. I’m certainly not trying to create controversy. I just can’t overcome this with out understanding “why?”
Am I being naive here, would one really be excommunicated for filming a romantic sex scene in a block buster movie like Braveheart ( I seem to remember it being very nice and Romantic) I think it must be a situation where it depends on the area/ bishop/respect for the individual/ the spirit.
Also I don’t agree that a nude sculpture could in any way be seen as crossing the line. I think that any Bishop in Europe that actually felt this way would be so embarrassed about coming across as uncultured that they would never dare say anything. The human body is beautiful in fact the most beautiful of HF creations. Sexuality is a blessing in life, why does the church have to be so uptight. Arrrrgh this is the kind of thing that drives me mad, its so unhealthy and i believe the less we view sexuality in a healthy way the more chance of people becoming screwed up.
There are opposites in all things, think- Leonardo’s naked David a stunningly beautiful piece of work. Could anyone call that inappropriate? I suppose someone might. That to me means that the whole thing has to be personal the line has got to be ones own conscience. what makes you personally feel good. AGAIN I go back to living by the dictates of our own heart. If you feel good about what you are doing in your heart then you should be able to justify this to your bishop in a way that he will understand.
On a slightly different point but still relevant, I am delighted that my 13 year old son has been exposed to nude sculpture his whole life, he has also seen his Dads work in the fashion industry which has at times been photographed on nearly nude models. It does not phase him one bit. Living in Europe he is surrounded by magazines, posters etc showing half clad women/men. I don’t know what the statistics are but I bet The Mormon boys being brought up over here in this environment are less likely to have sexual problems in marriage and turn to pornography. Just a hunch what do I know!
Quote:Am I being naive here, would one really be excommunicated for filming a romantic sex scene in a block buster movie like Braveheart ( I seem to remember it being very nice and Romantic) I think it must be a situation where it depends on the area/ bishop/respect for the individual/ the spirit.
Quote:I’m sorry but I do believe you are naive in this regard. I have been in the heartbeat of the Hollywood industry. Believe me when I tell you that the church will not tolerate too much. I can list several “mormon” Hollywood filmmakers that have left the church or have been disciplined because of film content. (I’m sure you are familiar with at least a few.) Many leave as they find it difficult to be a member in the Hollywood scene. I personally have tried to avoid the issue all together. I thought that after a few years leaving the industry my filmmaking passion would fade away but am finding that it’s ingrained into my “DNA.” Well at least it feels that way.
Filmmaking is viewed more as an agenda then an art form. Again, Twilight may have been a good story but it was not “R” rated. Also she is a writer not a filmmaker. Also, with prop 8, Mormon filmmakers are being blackballed. I personally was treated pretty rough when others found out that I was Mormon. Hollywood by many members is literally considered “Hell.” My wife attended a conference with Sherrie Dew, where she publicly criticized Hollywood as a terrible place to live because of the entertainment industry. (I’m not saying this to judge Sherrie Dew by any means.) But it goes to show how black and white church members can be. Recently Tom Hanks said some things some consider very “hurtful” about the church because of Prop 8. Believe me when I tell you being a Mormon filmmaker (unless your a Disney/Family creative) is not an easy thing to do. It is definitely hard to be in the film industry as a Mormon. I’m sure that is the case in the “fashion world” as well. Though LDS leaders in EUROPE may be a little more accepting then in the states.
Most LDS filmmakers I know tend to go the “corporate studio route.” Instead of making the films they work on the company side. This is much easier as you are handling “G-R” rated films from a selling or organizational level. It’s looked at as a job and not as intent to do harm. I personally think the church would want filmmakers in Hollywood making major movies. Now besides the exception of a few “no nudity/language” LDS believes filmmakers, the majority end up going in active or facing church disciplinary actions for their conduct. Most BIG Hollywood names that are Mormons are NOT active. I think part of the problem is the fact that films are so influential in effecting a persons life. You feel as though you’ve been part of the journey for good and bad. This is exactly why I love filmmaking. It is a place to explore and discover life.
Isn’t it better to live a life of the “temple goer” then to give it up for the “big spacious building?” Maybe I’m too black and white. I should also point out that if you ever “ACT” (not an issue for me) in a church film, you sign an agreement that requires you not to do any films in the future with ANY, “nudity, violence, or language.” If you break this agreement you could be disciplined. (This isn’t a joke.) Yes, the church wants to protect their image.
In filmmaking you are confronted with LIFE. Here is a list of content in projects that you will at sometime be confronted with: NUDITY, IMMORALITY, DRUGS (depiction), SAME SEX, PROFANITY, SMOKING(depiction), DRINKING(depiction) and the list goes on. You are not telling a story for Mormons but portraying life as it is in the REAL NON-LDS WORLD. You are also networking in an environment that has a lot of challenges. I remember having to leave an after party event for a MAJOR MOTION PICTURE because the dancing going on in the room was let’s say “not LDS.” Many times you will be faced with attending parties and events that don’t seem to fit within your morals and standards in order to build relationships with the right people. I have only met a few types of filmmakers that are LDS: LEFT CHURCH, LEFT FILM INDUSTRY, CORPORATE WORKER, and ONLY MAKES FAMILY FILMS.
I’m not the type of filmmaker with an agenda. I pick films based on what seems interesting and exciting to me. It takes a lot of work to make a film. You live and breathe it for a very long time. Unlike a painting where you are the only one in the room, filmmaking has many eyes and ears. Tolerance to the film community is required, especially Same Sex conversation. The people that you work with are usually much more liberal then you. Imagine being an “LDS” actor in Hollywood. What happens if you are asked to do a sex scene, use profanity etc.
A few questions:
Is it worse to have a “R” rated film (Let’s say with nudity and profanity) in your house then creating it? Why? (I think it probably is, but I would like to hear the why.)
If you are making a film about another persons life style that is not at the same moral standing as you in real life, is it honest to misrepresent who they are because of your personal views? (Honest in a character is very important in a film.)
If you make a film with nudity or profanity or drug use can you hold a temple recommend? If yes, please explain?
Is it wrong to go to places, such as PREMIERE parties, that have beer, sexual “type” dancing, a pot user on the side (it’s sad I know)? How will this affect your spiritual growth?
Is nudity in a film always inappropriate? why?
Is language always inappropriate? Are there swear words that are worse then others? (such as four versus three letter)
What do you think would be cause for disciplinary action of a member making films? why?
Should you limit your content because of your belief in God? Why?
I’m sure I’ll think of more later. I can’t move forward in filmmaking until I have these answered. By the way, my wife (even as a temple goer) has told me that she feels our lives were better when I was a filmmaker, as I was a HARDER WORKER and much more passionate. She excepts me for who I am, even if that means leaving the church. But, my heart is split in two. I am not a middle of the road, PG filmmaker. I tend to lean a little more honest in portraying my characters. I feel like I’m not being honest or fair approaching it any other way. I feared for my soul as I have been taught to not go into the “spacious building.” Because of this I gave it all up. But my wife, she loves me PERIOD. I hate GUILT.
It would be wonderful if you could back up your opinions with scriptural references.
Godlives, I put a link to this in the other thread about creativity, but I thought you might appreciate this post I did on Mormon Matters about a year ago: http://mormonmatters.org/2008/11/24/twilight-and-the-great-mormon-novel/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormonmatters.org/2008/11/24/twilight-and-the-great-mormon-novel/ I did another one, a little bit optimistically as well as tongue in cheek about why Hollywood should convert to Mormonism:
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/20/why-hollywood-should-be-mormon/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/20/why-hollywood-should-be-mormon/ And I did a post about that Tom Hanks comment also:
http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/11/does-tom-hanks-hate-mormons/ You might find that some of these posts and pursuant discussions resonate for you. I think there is definitely an issue with artistic professions and religion in general. Another issue, IMO, stems from the fact that the majority of those who chose artist or athletic pursuits are SPs in MBTI parlance and tend to be hedonistic and somewhat anti-religious (but pro-spirituality in an airy-fairy purely conceptual way).
Fwiw, there are LOTS of ways to depict real life, include profanity and sexual content and keep your church membership – even a temple recommend. There are LOTS of Mormons who aren’t excommunicated for their activities in Hollywood. Producing and acting in soft- or hard-core porn is one thing; producing and acting in R-rated movies in totally different. Individual leaders might pressure members improperly, but it’s not official church policy to excommunicate members for involvement in the movie industry.
I am going to be very direct:
You need to quit blaming others for your choices and start learning to make your own choices. Life isn’t about what others think of you; it’s about what you think of yourself. That’s extremely hard for someone to learn who was raised in a co-dependent environment, but it’s critical that you face it head-on.
Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw, there are LOTS of ways to depict real life, include profanity and sexual content and keep your church membership – even a temple recommend. There are LOTS of Mormons who aren’t excommunicated for their activities in Hollywood. Producing and acting in soft- or hard-core porn is one thing; producing and acting in R-rated movies in totally different.
I just want to make sure I am understanding this comment correctly. Are you saying that you can write/film a nude scene in a rated “R” movie and keep your temple recommend? I know many bishops that would disagree with this, and would prevent you from going to the temple.
Old-Timer wrote:You need to quit blaming others for your choices and start learning to make your own choices. Life isn’t about what others think of you; it’s about what you think of yourself. That’s extremely hard for someone to learn who was raised in a co-dependent environment, but it’s critical that you face it head-on.
I obviously need to read about codependency. I clearly don’t fully understand it. The idea of freeing myself from the concerns of “what others think of me” is an incredible concept. I’ve never been able to completely grasp it.
I keep thinking of the primary song our children sing in church:
“Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don’t go astray, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, HE KNOWS THE WAY.”
Is it just me or is our church teaching children codependency from a young age? How in the WORLD can anyone be Mormon and NOT be codependent. We are taught that the “Prophet” knows best. I’ve been taught my whole life to follow the prophet. What about the idea of “carnal” versus “spiritual”? Is it unfair to say that perhaps I’m being too unfaithful by even posting my questions on this forum and should just “FOLLOW THE PROPHET” accepting that he knows what’s best for me whether or not I agree, with minimal questioning? Isn’t that the idea of FAITH?
Members are taught, “I will do what you (PROPHET) want me to do, even if I don’t agree.” Assuming it doesn’t break the commandments of the church; “murder etc.” I’m being a faithful member by following the PROPHET despite my own disagreements and lack of understanding. Is accepting that any desire I have that does not go in line with the church teachings WRONG? Are we not taught to rely on GOD (under the priesthood) as MAN is an enemy to God? Does the church not teach us that we should bridle our passions? Are we not taught that even if the PROPHET is wrong, we will not be held accountable if we follow him faithfully? (except murder etc.)
Does not anyone see the hypocrasy in any of this?
Codependency = LDS MEMBER. “Lean not unto my own understanding…”
On some level or another we as members of the church are “hoping” and “praying” that the church is TRUE. Why else would we even care about being a member? I mean common, there are easier churches to be in. People that are not codependent don’t stay in a place that promotes codependency. (At least my sister-in-law doesn’t.) I may not understand codependency completely but BOY it sure seems that it can’t be completely my fault for doing what I’ve been taught my whole life to do in being a “faithful member of the church.” (That is when I don’t question all of this.)
Is something wrong with this frame of mind? I have a billion quotes from church doctrine, prophets, apostles, etc. that clearly would stand behind these statements.
(Again this post is for my personal challenges. I’m not trying to criticize any one else on the forum. Please understand that my statements are within the context of my struggle NOT yours.)
Quote:How in the WORLD can anyone be Mormon and NOT be codependent.
Quote:Codependency = LDS MEMBER.
You just called everyone on this forum who still is LDS co-dependent – not intentionally, I presume, but in practical terms. I’m not saying that in anger in ANY way; I’m just pointing out a fact and trying to show you your own warped perspective right now. Please consider the implications of that conclusion.
You are wrong on both accounts, and until you realize it, you will be miserable and blame others for your misery. You have to accept that to become happy internally you have to take ownership of your own actions and decisions, and you need to do so by beginning to understand the need to balance BOTH communal standards of behavior AND personal responsibility for your own choices in determining how to construct your own individual life.
ALL organizations need communal standards in order to function as a community – which means, at its most fundamental level, a united group. All organizations need a leader (or leadership), so all organizations need “someone” whom the others agree to “follow”. Unity can’t occur without some degree of inter-dependence, and inter-dependence can’t occur without some degree of self-sacrifice and acquiescence to a commonly accepted behavioral standard – led / enforced somehow. There is a HUGE difference between inter-dependence and co-dependence, and it’s critical that you study and understand that difference.
It’s not an issue of following the Prophet in every aspect of life, as tempting as it is to make it about that and blame the Prophet and the organization. It’s about putting aside childish things and beginning to craft one’s own understanding – one’s own internal peace and vision – one’s own charity for others who see things differently – one’s own recognition that others who follow something to different degrees than one’s self aren’t “wrong” necessarily for doing so. It cuts both ways – for those who believe all and are prone to criticize those who don’t AND for those who don’t believe all and tend to criticize those who do. It’s about learning to not be co-dependent but learning to be inter-dependent, and you are going to have to come to grips with that distinction to begin to be happy, imo.
Quote:there are easier churches to be in
That’s true. Life without any growth or personal accountability is certainly the easiest path, whether in or out of a church.
Quote:People that are not codependent don’t stay in a place that promotes codependency.
Almost. But you’ve got that turned around. People that are codependent will seek codependent relationships. They will leave a place (or person) that is unwilling to enable their codependence. Places do not promote codependency. Neither do organizations. There is no such thing as a codependent organization (because the neediness of the individuals in a codependent relationship will cause an organization to collapse–they are unsustainable on a wide scale); there are only codependent people.
godlives wrote:I just want to make sure I am understanding this comment correctly. Are you saying that you can write/film a nude scene in a rated “R” movie and keep your temple recommend? I know many bishops that would disagree with this, and would prevent you from going to the temple.
I’ve been an independent film writer/director for over 10 years, not exactly in Hollywood but my last film was released world-wide by a Hollywood distributor. I’ve had swearing, smoking, drinking, drug use and extreme profanity in a number of my films and was never brought in to talk to the bishop or denied a temple recommend. My in-laws pretend that my films don’t exist, but that’s about the extent of my “discipline”. (Also, it was pretty known that my films were rated R so a priesthood leader would be sinning to watch my movie
😆 😆 😆 , God definitely has a sense of humor
I hope you take to heart with the right spirit what Ray was saying. And I absolutely loved what Poppy said. Those are such wise words. I would encourage you as well to really delve into the possibilities of gaining emotional health through recovering from codependency.
I really feel you have a voice and that voice was given to you by “something”, “God”, a higher power, whatever you want to call it. Your obvious passion should not be bottled up. Once you break the chains of codependency, you will discover a way to pursue your greatest potential, professionally, personally, spiritually, emotionally and mentally.
Don’t get hung up on all the obstacles you see in front of you. You see them as obstacles put there by external forces whether it’s God, church, parents, priesthood leaders, spouse, whatever. But, in reality, YOU are allowing those obstacles to exist. You could ignore those obstacles, not care what others think, AND follow the spirit of God. They’re not mutually exclusive. It is possible. (Though, as hawkgrrl said, difficult in the orthodox mormon worldview)
Thank you for your posts regarding codependency. I honestly feel quite embarrassed about opening up like this on a forum. I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone or came across judge mental. (open mouth insert shoe) Though I said a blanket statement regarding codependency (which I clearly don’t understand as I’m crossing it with interdependence) I said it based on what I’ve been taught, not how I feel. I normally have a good head on my shoulders. I have been criticized for being too independent in the past. I suppose the last few years, and especially more recently, God is trying to help me to the next level in my understanding. Change is hard. It wasn’t until a serious string of difficult events, getting pounded on over and over, that I lost my sense of strength and footing. If you’ve ever had a major continual life threatening health crisis with your spouse that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, lost of home, business, children crying over lost friends and pets, and even the death of loved ones in a short period then you will understand that it’s not easy. Faith suddenly takes on a whole new meaning. I may seem naive and pathetic but I believe I will get things sorted out with the help of God. I’m not saying I couldn’t have done more to prevent some of the things from happening, but it’s still hard. It’s clearly time for me to move forward in my life and CHANGE my perspective.
Your comments are very enlightening. (I really am in a state of shock.) I’ feel completely out of my norm and perhaps need to meditate and pull myself back together. If you were to see me at church, you wouldn’t have a clue that I’m struggling. (Thank goodness for the small things in life like privacy, even in a public forum.)
I am willing to take responsibility for my choices… even if it appears otherwise. Thank you again.
(And I’m teaching gospel doctrine on Sunday.
😆 )Just to touch on the art content thing… My husband is an MFA Acting student. He’s currently acting in a production of Neil LaBute’s
Some Girl(s),wherein he smokes an herbal cigarette, cusses extensively, and appears in nothing but boxers with another woman. He was also recently called to the Elder’s Quorum Presidency in our ward.
In the interview with the stake, they asked if he was worthy. He said, “I feel worthy in every way, but you should know that I am an actor and frequently perform in productions where I cuss a lot and kiss other women.”
He was told that the church has NO position on that sort of thing, and it is between Him and God (and to some extent me; FWIW, I’m COMPLETELY fine with it).
In any event, I don’t see why this would EVER COME UP in a temple recommend interview anyway. There is a list of questions; “do you watch or make rated R movies?” is NOT on the list. The temple recommend interview is not a place for you to justify your life decisions to your bishop; it’s a place for you to take personal inventory. If you can, within yourself and
according to your own parameters,honestly answer yes to the questions, you should have no problem with the institutional church. My experience is that if you don’t make a big deal out of it, no one else will, either. I feel pretty close to this content topic, because of my husband’s chosen profession (plus, I have an acting degree as well–though I haven’t pursued a career in the theatre for logistical reasons [one in the family is plenty, thank you very much]). So I’ll take a stab at the questions you posed…
Is it worse to have a “R” rated film (Let’s say with nudity and profanity) in your house then creating it? Why? (I think it probably is, but I would like to hear the why.)I think this is a flawed question, as neither are inherently bad. So to ask “which is worse” is kind of a non-issue. For me the real question is, does the film have artistic merit? Is the profanity/nudity gratuitous, or necessary to tell the story in the most effective way possible?
If you are making a film about another persons life style that is not at the same moral standing as you in real life, is it honest to misrepresent who they are because of your personal views? (Honest in a character is very important in a film.)It’s dishonest.
If you make a film with nudity or profanity or drug use can you hold a temple recommend? If yes, please explain?Yes. As I said previously, the temple recommend interview is not a place for you to justify your life decisions to your bishop; it’s a place for you to take personal inventory. If you can, within yourself and according to your own parameters, honestly answer yes to the questions, you should have no problem with the institutional church.
Is it wrong to go to places, such as PREMIERE parties, that have beer, sexual “type” dancing, a pot user on the side (it’s sad I know)? How will this affect your spiritual growth?No, it’s not wrong. It will only affect your spiritual growth if you begin to find your sense of meaning and existence within that world as opposed to within yourself and your relationship with God.
Is nudity in a film always inappropriate? why?Absolutely not. For example,
Schindler’s Listwouldn’t have been half as effective without nudity. Is language always inappropriate? Are there swear words that are worse then others? (such as four versus three letter)Words mean things. Sometimes to be true to the situation and the characters, you have to use the language they’d use. Again, for me it’s an issue of gratuitousness (trying to be “edgy” or vile for shock value) vs. artistic merit and honesty.
What do you think would be cause for disciplinary action of a member making films? why?When you cross the line into porn or make a film challenging the church’s authority, then I expect you’d run into trouble. Otherwise, I sincerely I doubt you’d get much flak.
Should you limit your content because of your belief in God? Why?Actually, on this I’d say yes. You should always consider your relationship with God in whatever you do professionally or artistically. I’d say the issue here is to 1)–stop equating “God” with “the church”; and 2)–develop a personal, direct relationship with Him that isn’t filtered through an institutional third party. Let your conscience and your personal communion with God affect the work you produce. You might be surprised at what you do (and don’t!) feel good about creating from an artistic standpoint when you eliminate the middle man.
EDIT: Upon rereading that last paragraph, I realize it sounds like I’m saying that you don’t need the church or should reject the church. I’m not. I’m just saying that the church isn’t the mediator or intercessor between you and God. It’s a direct 1-to-1 relationship. You don’t have to filter everything according to what your bishop would say. Follow your conscience and trust God to lead you right.
katielangston wrote:1)–stop equating “God” with “the church”;
Please expand on this point. I’ve also thought that GOD was at the head of our church speaking through PROPHETS for all of us. This is a tough one for me to grasp.
Quote:Please expand on this point. I’ve also thought that GOD was at the head of our church speaking through PROPHETS for all of us. This is a tough one for me to grasp.
Yeah, this one has been frustrating for me, too. But here’s where I’ve come to on this (subject to change with more experience and information, of course):
God and the church are NOT synonymous. God is God–an eternal, all-knowing, all-loving Creator and Ruler of the Universe. The church is an organization comprised of flawed, messed up men and women. If God is the church and the church God, then you either have to conclude that God is imperfect or the church is perfect. Neither option makes much sense to me.
I mean, even if Mormonism is True in the “traditional” sense of the word, it’s tough to deny two things:
1)–Mormonism isn’t the ONLY vehicle through which God speaks to man (what about inspired leaders and thinkers from other cultures and faith traditions?–surely God loves them too and doesn’t withhold His presence from them); and
2)–Prophets can mess up, too (i.e. your discovery of Joseph Smith’s humanity).
What does this mean? For me, it means that truth exists outside of Mormonism (even independent of Mormonism), and that sometimes Mormonism gets it wrong. This can be a scary thought, especially when you’re used to the “security” that comes with “Follow the Prophet”, but from where I’m sitting, it’s an unavoidable conclusion. When Paul said “we see through a glass, darkly,” he meant it. We ALL DO. Even him; even prophets and apostles.
The only way I can see navigating the waters, then, is by relying on your own compass and relationship with God to pull you through. Of course, that’s even scarier, because if others can get it wrong, whose to say you’ll get it right? But that’s part of the point, I think, of mortality–and why we have the Savior. He knows we’ll never fully “get it” but He loves us and forgives us anyway.
@ godlives- Do you think that you have the same idea about who/what God is that the prophet does? Do you have the same idea about who/what God is that I do?
My point: we all have to discover for ourselves who God is, just as the prophet probably did or is doing. Assuming He exists and assuming He doesn’t change, wouldn’t our idea of who/what God is change as we grow, progress, learn, experience, etc.? Isn’t it always changing?
And how do you decide when the prophet is speaking for God and when he’s just speaking? Does God tell TSM to dye his hair? If so, why? If not, why not?
Thanks, I will comment back to you later. Melody Beattie’ s Codependence No More is on itunes. I’m going to listen to it this weekend. I enjoy reading but feel like an audio tape. Hopefully it will help.
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