in a state of shock… well sort of

[Anonymous]

Lots on this thread that struck me and I could reply on, but no time. Thanks for sharing your story, godlives.

I will comment on these:

godlives wrote:

I don’t blame my parents. I’m a fifth generation mormon, with major pioneer links in the families past. I feel like I will never be happy as a mormon. I also feel like I’ll never be happy as a non-mormon. I wish I could split myself into two people. The true artist that I am, and the faithful mormon that I’ve always tried to be. This has lead me to a place where I have accepted my life will always be different then what I want it to be because I want opposites. I want complete “GRACE” and the restored gospel on the earth.

Splitting yourself in two to be happy, trying to find your way in the church, yet be true to your uniqueness of who you are… it sounds to me like you are a pioneer as much as your ancestors were, finding your way through the wilderness. That is inspiring to see you keep trying and not give up or give in.

I can’t let Hawk’s comment go without props:

Hawkgrrrl wrote:

The church, like your average Walmart, is mostly full of bored housewives, unfulfilled dreams, and unruly children.

I really think this is what many organizations get reduced to, because it is the lowest common denominator. Meet the needs of the most people…but it doesn’t provide all things to all people. So I must do some shopping in specialty stores to fill what I can’t find at Walmart, because I desire to be better than mediocre.

[Anonymous]

katielangston wrote:

Should you limit your content because of your belief in God? Why?

Actually, on this I’d say yes. You should always consider your relationship with God in whatever you do professionally or artistically. I’d say the issue here is to 1)–stop equating “God” with “the church”; and 2)–develop a personal, direct relationship with Him that isn’t filtered through an institutional third party. Let your conscience and your personal communion with God affect the work you produce. You might be surprised at what you do (and don’t!) feel good about creating from an artistic standpoint when you eliminate the middle man.

EDIT: Upon rereading that last paragraph, I realize it sounds like I’m saying that you don’t need the church or should reject the church. I’m not. I’m just saying that the church isn’t the mediator or intercessor between you and God. It’s a direct 1-to-1 relationship. You don’t have to filter everything according to what your bishop would say. Follow your conscience and trust God to lead you right.

I completely agree with this statement. I do have a direct 1-to-1 relationship with God. Wow it feels good to say that!

I’m on chapter 7 of “Codependency No More.” Guess what everyone, “I’M SOOOOOO CODEPENDENT IT’S UNBELIEVABLE.” (but you didn’t know that, right? ) I mean WOW! It’s as if God made this book just for me. I already feel a lot better and I’m only half way through the book. I realize I have a ways to go, but WOW!

I spoke with my wife about my feelings and she actually WANTS me to be the Filmmaker I want to be. We have even started to discuss how to change our course of direction (slowly, step-by-step) in order to get back the career I once had. The funny thing is I ended up talking to my mother-in-law about it. I know that sounds strange but she’s a convert and is usually fairly realistic and approachable. We spent time discussing my wife’s needs and concerns as well. What I have discovered is that I’m okay with making the movies I want to make. Even if it has CONTENT members will disagree with and is “R” rated. I’m going to reflect the truth of the story I’m telling. My mother-in-law said that she has been watching me sabotage myself and my career for a while; worrying and resenting others because of it. The funny thing is SHE DISAGREES WITH MY FILM OPINIONS but accepts that we can disagree. What’s great is I don’t really care if she disagrees because I know what I BELIEVE. I’ve never felt this sense of “freedom before”, WOW again. Though she disagrees with some of my points of view she LOVES me no matter what and is only concerned about her daughter feeling comfortable in my decisions. (for the sake of our marriage.) My wife actually agrees with my points of view and suggests I get back to my GOD given gift once again.

Obviously this is going to take some time to get back to my dreams, but at least it’s a start. I also realize that this can’t happen over night, as it would be irresponsible of me to up and leave my contracts and current obligations. But I feel so much better. I’m starting to realize that God loves ME for who I am! In the mean time I have decided to get back to writing screenplays, which I haven’t done in two years. This will give me an outlet and future possible projects. I’m also going to get a camera and take some pictures. Kind of a pre-production outlet that let’s me breathe a little and have time to myself, for myself. As a child I used to do still photography and spent hours in the dark room at my Jr. High School developing the images. Ironically my current line of work may be a nice transition to even doing some work in the film industry that can help me earn some extra cash (to keep the family stable as I rebuild.)

I feel like my life has the chance for a rebirth. And believe me when I say I need it. Now I have a lot of questions about codependency and a lot to learn, but haven’t finished the book.

I should also say that I still have a lot of questions about my place in the LDS church, if I have a place. I’m still not sure how I feel but am not rushing to leave either. In the mean time I see nothing preventing me from participating and teaching Sunday School. In fact I plan on continuing to dig much deeper into the history of the church. I am already very familiar with the many websites and disagreements on Joseph Smith, and many other doctrines of conflict. As I can only teach out of the manual at church, I plan on studying the manual heavily and the other books (yes including the controversial ones) that allow me to form my own opinions. I respect the boundaries the church has on what I’m allowed to teach and discuss at church. As long as I’m able to keep up this attitude I see no reason not to teach gospel doctrine. If I had a problem I certainly wouldn’t make it publicly known. Any suggestions on this?

There is no way I can blindly accept every aspect of our church history as I have too many questions. I believe that with true intent (not looking for an excuse to leave etc.) God will help me along this journey. I’m looking forward to reading Quinn’s book and others. I want to approach this by reading from those that have spent time and have a good grasp of the actual historical events; even though they may disagree on what occurred. Because I know that many people struggle with their FAITH reading this material, I would appreciate suggestions on ways to approach this that allow for a balanced study. I don’t like things sugar coated. (Except for my cookies.)

[Anonymous]

Okay I am going to really need GOD to help me teach. I’m sorry I’m trying. Here is an excerpt from the lesson I’m teaching tomorrow:

Quote:

President Harold B. Lee taught: “The only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized [see D&C 21:4–5]. … There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you’ [D&C 21:6]” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1970, 152; or Improvement Era, Dec. 1970, 126).

[Anonymous]

I understand totally the angst such statements cause, but, frankly, it’s really no different than any organization made up of mortals. There simply has to be an ultimate authority that is followed if it is to survive and thrive.

Personally, I would teach that concept by including D&C 1:38:

Quote:

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

I wrote a long parsing of this verse, but the cliff notes version is that this says “the (collective) VOICE (singular) of my SERVANTS (plural)”. It doesn’t say the singular voice of any particular Prophet or apostle or GA; it says the collective voice of all the servants. That’s a critical distinction, and I think it’s an absolutely fair and “faithful” interpretation. I don’t use it to justify rebellion of any kind, but I really believe deeply in the principle. I’ve taught it in Stake Leadership meetings and not gotten any negative feedback or reprimand, fwiw.

Frankly, there are VERY, VERY few things that meet that standard, and I fully expect there to be even fewer 10-50 years from now.

I accept, for now, what has been taught unanimously by all the Prophets and apostles as what God wants for the LDS Church at this time. I personally can see certain things differently on an individual basis, but I am fine with not having the “institutional standards” be perfectly in line with my own personal perspectives – and I am fine not challenging publicly the instutional standards and waiting for them to change over time. That’s what I think on-going revelation is all about, and, while I wouldn’t go into that much detail in a Sunday lesson, the core principle I would cover without hesitation – probably under the topic of balancing personal revelation and an individual testimony with communal standards that must be established from the top.

[Anonymous]

Ray, that’s an interesting interpretation–one I’ve never heard. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

@godlives:

I’m so glad you found “Codependent No More”. It really is an amazing book and was probably written for me, but you can relate to it. 😆 😳 😆

It sounds great that you’re going to take it slow. I agree. No hurry. The changes that need to happen to your internal life will take time and as you embrace emotional health and recovery, life will start to teach you valuable lessons that can only help you in your journey, whether professional, personal, emotional or spiritual.

@Ray:

That interpretation fits perfectly into my personal view of divinity and the role of humanity. Thanks for sharing!

[Anonymous]

To godlives….

You can’t worry about what your bishop thinks, you can’t worry about whether you’ll be excommunicated, etc. This is not easy for me to say. For 25 years I’ve written short stories, plays and screenplays. I’ve never published anything that I’ve written and I’ve never had a play produced, but I’ve had two screenplays produced. I used a pseudonym because I was ashamed of them, not because of R-rated content but rather the opposite. They were…I guess the word is kitsch. The irony for me is that the church loved them even though they were almost complete garbage––bad acting, bad direction, really bad scripts. But because there was no “language”, no nudity or sex, and a tidy little moral was offered up at the end, it was considered praiseworthy. It reminded me of Hugh Nibley’s comment that in the church today it is more praiseworthy to get up at 6 a.m. and write a bad book than to get up at 9 a.m. and write a good one.

For anybody working in film, theater, writing fiction…the thought that one day you’ll get a call from the stake president inviting you in for a “visit” is very real, and I for one have decided that if this happens––maybe in 4-5 years, when I’m ready to publish or produce a play, since I doubt I will ever have the money to do one of my films––I have decided that if one day this happens…well then it happens.

I can’t imagine Joseph Smith doing this, and I can’t imagine the Savior doing it. Jesus taught that the tares will grow with the wheat until He comes to separate them, but until that day they will grow together…because, I think, nobody but Jesus knows enough, nobody knows or can know the hearts of men sufficiently to separate the tares from the wheat. When a Stake Pres/Bishop undertakes to excommunicate a member for, say, egregious adultery, that is one thing, but to excommunicate an artist for overstepping some nebulous, indefinable line…well, that is another. J. Bonner Ritchie, a BYU faculty member, in an address (at BYU, I think), said that “all organizations are immoral”, and the church is no exception: all organizations tend toward abuse of the individual. The church is nowhere near as abusive as, say, the IRS; but I believe it can still be abusive in the way it treats individuals, and excommunicating artists/intellectuals is one manifestation of this abuse.

[Anonymous]

The J. Bonner Ritchie quote is not verbatim, I can’t remember his exact words. But I think I got the sense of what he was saying right.

[Anonymous]

ken wrote:

It reminded me of Hugh Nibley’s comment that in the church today it is more praiseworthy to get up at 6 a.m. and write a bad book than to get up at 9 a.m. and write a good one.

ken, thanks for sharing this…well said, and it does seem to describe a lot of typical mormon thinking…especially the closer you get to Salt Lake.

This troubles me, however. Why are mormons taught to be so narrow minded and rulesy? I would think people would go to church on Sunday to get away from the “immoral organizations” that we deal with day to day, that the church is a refuge from the immorals of the world…not more of the beauracracy and politics on religious teachings.

[Anonymous]

Heber, until people realize that the statement that it is the nature and disposition of almost ALL (wo)men to tend toward unrighteous dominion – and, thereby, people realize that it’s going to happen even in the Church – until that day, this will cause issues. When we realize that it simply will be, inside the Church as well, then and only then will we find peace.

It simply is what it is. Our job is to do our best to minimize it by rooting that tendency out of ourselves – not eliminate it throughout the entire organization. That won’t happen until the end, I’m afraid.

[Anonymous]

I look forward to the time when the church is actually the Kingdom of God!

(Do any of you think I can make movies in heaven? Think of the material that would be available to me then! I wonder what the rating of a mormon film would be if I wrote it based on members thoughts while at church? Any guesses? Assuming I could hear members thoughts which I can’t… thank goodness for the simple things in life! lol 😆 😈 😆 )

Church devotionals at the beginning of work guilt employees with tactics like, “you are getting paid by the tithing funds.” Is it just me or aren’t they getting paid because they do a job? I sincerely doubt that a temple square janitor getting paid $8.00 an hour feels like they owe their appreciation to tithing funds. I mean does anyone enjoy cleaning toilets?

Over a year ago the church started laying off people six months before they qualified for full retirement pensions due to budget cuts, yet continued to build new buildings and temples. Of course this was expressed with much appreciation and a special message of FAITH! People at the church office building had honorably worked for the church for many years. Instead of retiring as they planned they found themselves looking for new jobs and less money for retirement, while the church spent the funds other ways. I’m not suggesting that building temples and church buildings aren’t important, but people are the most important (in my humble opinion). Why not have all church employees take a pay cut across the board? I’m afraid the business men on top are typical corporate giants who don’t want to lose money. But of course those who lost their jobs shouldn’t complain, the most important thing is the Church right? “

Have FAITH, you are 64 1/2 years old, you’ll find new employment.”

“But I am having surgery on my knee next month and need my health insurance to pay for it.”

(After such ethics they wonder why church members sometime question them?)

Now some will say, “but that’s just the business side, not the TRUE church.” Yet the ethics that are being questioned are being conducted by those in charge of these church entity corporations, who usually happen to be “General Authorities.” I’m not judging them as much as I’m wishing they would pull the beam out of their own eye first, allowing the average member to live their lives the best they can; instead of humiliating them by being cast out. (I realize that there are exceptions.) From experience I have found that most members that leave the church were trying to the best they felt they could, but fell short… or are just doing their jobs in the REAL world.

A mormon male doctor doesn’t get fired for doing a physical of a naked woman. A mormon lawyer doesn’t get kicked out for defending a case for a known murderer. A mormon member charging 21% credit fees for in store purchases while the church or GA’s (individually) are investing into these stores; all while telling us to stay out of debt? A mormon owner of a major hotel chain or sports team doesn’t get kicked out for offering/selling alcohol or online adult content, screening “R” movies in their theaters, yet how many filmmakers and church historians do you know that have been kicked out or chose to leave in order to continue their work? I can count several mormon filmmakers off the top of my head that left or were forced to leave the church for doing their work. We watch our best artistic talent leave the church and why? Because just like everyone else they are trying to make a living and the church challenges them for it.

I’m not suggesting that a hotel owner shouldn’t sell alcohol. Obviously they sell alcohol because the customer demands it, it’s good business; just like making films for the general public. Hollywood is a business! 99% of the time they make films that SELL or they will not make them. I have friends that make “horror films” which I know many members think are evil. (Some are worse then others, and I’m not a horror filmmaker, though my films may turn out horrible, but that’s another story.) What I am suggesting is that they do it because it makes them a WHOLE LOT of money; especially when played in a theater near BYU. I have a friend who makes these and he is a very good man with a whole lot of integrity.

(note: Most studios only release one film a year that may not make money but could possibly win an Oscar.)

One final story: At church we expect everyone to share their talents as singers and musicians. A professional Opera singer was asked to perform at a church activity night for her ward. Her husband told the bishop that she could only sing if she was paid. The bishop tried to guilt her explaining that the church teaches all of us to share our talents. He was surprised when she still refused without PAY. The husband then said to the bishop, “okay bishop you go ask Brother Jones (who happened to be a doctor) to give us all a free doctors visit (physical).” The bishop said, “Well NO I can’t do that, it’s his profession.” Boy did that bishop miss the point! (Obviously if an artist wants to donate their time and talents then GREAT! But it should never be expected for free.)

Not all those that claim to be artists are professionals, but some are. They have spent years and a lot of money to do what they can do, just like any other professional line of work. (Except artists are usually way more stylish! )

Sorry for the tangent. I just needed to get it out! (Mmm I feel like eating a cookie… I’m thinking anything chocolate. 🙄 🙄 🙄 )

[Anonymous]

Reading this last post I realize I’m changing quickly. (It’s a little strange but yet it feels good.) I almost feel like just continuing being a member and make the films I want to make despite what could happen to me. There are so many things I love about the gospel.

I want the cake and I will eat it too. (Well actually I’m eating a cookie, but it’s chocolate. MMMMMMM )

It’s probably just a phase…

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Heber, until people realize that the statement that it is the nature and disposition of almost ALL (wo)men to tend toward unrighteous dominion – and, thereby, people realize that it’s going to happen even in the Church – until that day, this will cause issues. When we realize that it simply will be, inside the Church as well, then and only then will we find peace.

It simply is what it is. Our job is to do our best to minimize it by rooting that tendency out of ourselves – not eliminate it throughout the entire organization. That won’t happen until the end, I’m afraid.

Good reminder, Ray. I should know better … as I have held callings in the past and really tried to follow inspiration, but know I made mistakes too. It is a very human organization, but the majority of leaders are trying to do what they think is right…just get off track sometimes like I sure did, and need to be humbled.

I think you are right that my focus should be on rooting it out of me…not focusing on all the faults I can find in others and how they do things.

godlives, your experience is really interesting to read…because your profession could be controversial with others in the church, I’m sure. It is good to hear you feel you are changing rapidly…that is a good sign if the change is leading to peace with yourself and God. I think in many situations, that is how to deal with things…separate God from the church on the issues that you need to resolve, and then allow God to work through the church in other matters that help you stay connected. Good for you.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

This troubles me, however. Why are mormons taught to be so narrow minded and rulesy? I would think people would go to church on Sunday to get away from the “immoral organizations” that we deal with day to day, that the church is a refuge from the immorals of the world…not more of the beauracracy and politics on religious teachings.

You can’t teach this stuff. Most people simply ARE narrow-minded. Narrow-minded people hear what speaks to them at church, and they repeat the messages they like. The majority of people like rules, like to know where they stand, how to earn rewards, and how to be viewed as good enough. So, they hear a talk and that’s what speaks to them. When they give a talk, that’s what they emphasize (obedience, commandments, follow the prophet). There are others for whom rules are not core to our values. We hear that same talk but hear different counsel. There just aren’t as many of us in the world. That’s OK. We don’t have to be the majority. You can’t change what that majority wants, needs, and hears, but you also can’t get what you need from that mindset if you aren’t that kind of person. You have to live up to your own values and ideals. The gospel is broad enough for that, even if not all members are.

[Anonymous]

godlives, fwiw, it takes only one bad experience to outweigh seven good experiences in the typical human memory. Please keep that in mind – that I, you, a bishop, a RS Pres, a Prophet, an apostle, whoever can make only one “mistake” in every eight things s/he does, but it is that one mistake that tends to be remembered as the example of the (wo)man or organization.

In my experiences, there aren’t very many people who make only one mistake every eight things they say or do. I know I say things not quite the way I wish I would have more often than that. All I can do is hope that others are charitable and try to understand my heart – and make sure I offer that same attitude to others. It’s the only way to lasting happiness I have found – real charity, not the mutated type that most people understand.

[Author]

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