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The only other faith journeys I view up close and with a fairly wide-angle lens are those of my children, and I was struck yesterday by how hard they’re trying to reconcile church activity with their growing acceptance of homosexuality. The church is trying to inoculate them with historical facts and doctrinal conclusions, but their own experience in the world is galvanizing them to take confident stances in opposition to the church. One daughter working away from home has a gay boss. She’s always been upset by the November policy, but she’s turned some kind of corner now. She knows in a way she never knew before that
she cannot be part of telling this man he is sinning.She’s been galvanized, and I don’t think that’s a process that the church has an exact antidote for. She sees this man – smart, good-hearted, professional, engaged to his boyfriend, doing great good in the world – and it’s more than just tolerance and acceptance she feels now. It’s love and respect. That’s a coating that’s not coming off. It remains to be seen, I guess, whether the church can accept her as she is now. Just thinking aloud.
Ann wrote:The only other faith journeys I view up close and with a fairly wide-angle lens are those of my children, and I was struck yesterday by how hard they’re trying to reconcile church activity with their growing acceptance of homosexuality. The church is trying to inoculate them with historical facts and doctrinal conclusions, but their own experience in the world is galvanizing them to take confident stances in opposition to the church.
One daughter working away from home has a gay boss. She’s always been upset by the November policy, but she’s turned some kind of corner now. She knows in a way she never knew before that
she cannot be part of telling this man he is sinning.She’s been galvanized, and I don’t think that’s a process that the church has an exact antidote for. She sees this man – smart, good-hearted, professional, engaged to his boyfriend, doing great good in the world – and it’s more than just tolerance and acceptance she feels now. It’s love and respect. That’s a coating that’s not coming off. It remains to be seen, I guess, whether the church can accept her as she is now. Just thinking aloud.
I am seeing the same thing. All of my kids have verbally said something to effect of the policy being, “stupid.”Could this be the signs of a more mature church? The rising generation is learning an important lesson, it’s okay to disagree with ecclesiastical leaders. Do we give them the space they need or do we run them off? How do the Catholics handle this sort of thing? The pope says that you can’t use birth control. There are some Catholics that take it to heart, some that quietly ignore the council, and others that tell all their questioning friends that the pope is full of it, and they all sit together at Mass.
Is that the sign of a more mature church? An environment where people are more open about their decisions to internalize some things and ignore others.
I think having a lay clergy introduces competition to better follow the brethren into the mix but policies like that can be a real opportunity for people to exercise agency.
All four of my children (all younger than 16) have concluded on their own that being gay is not a choice and that homosexuality is not inherently wrong. This is independent of all the church teachings they’ve received – and I live in a fairly conservative ward that has been pretty opposed to gay marriage. One of my daughters is a self proclaimed feminist even though her mother is very conservative politically. I would say that the church population as a whole is more mature and sophisticated than it was in the era when the Q12 and Q70 grew up.
On a related note there are many things in the handbook that are simply ignored even by the most conservative members in my area. Vasectomy comes to mind. I tend to think that sexual activity among teenagers is higher than most church leaders believe, although I could be very wrong about what leadership perceives about straight sexual sin. Also traditional Sabbath observance among LDS faithful seems more permissive than when I grew up.
This issue will be understood radically differently in a few years by the general membership – who will become the local leadership. It will drive away too many members (like one of my sons), but my other five kids who hopefully remain will be part of why it changes. That is the main reason I hope they stay – and why I speak “faithfully” about my problems with some things. I want them to see me and know it is possible to be faithful AND not fully-accepting of everything.
Ann wrote:… it’s more than just tolerance and acceptance she feels now. It’s love and respect. That’s a coating that’s not coming off. It remains to be seen, I guess, whether the church can accept her as she is now.
I think that is really cool to see, and makes me think your daughter is awesome…raised of “goodly” parents.
:thumbup: It also makes me a little sad, because it shouldn’t have to be something they find despite the church’s council…I wish it was church council at the forefront of more peace and love and respect.
But it is what it is.
nibbler wrote:Is that the sign of a more mature church? An environment where people are more open about their decisions to internalize some things and ignore others.
That sounds like a more mature membership…and a less mature church that can’t deal with it better.
Old Timer wrote:It will drive away too many members (like one of my sons),
Perhaps I’m idealistic…but don’t prefer them to act out of how many members would leave, but would rather the church act out of truth and right. If they teach what is right, and the members leave, that is on the members. If they withhold teaching correct principles for fear it can’t be received by members, that is on the church. Perhaps even worded more strongly…I am not sure I want people in the church who can’t accept truth.
Like nibbler was hinting at, I think to become more mature in our discipleship, God knows we need conflict and ambiguity so we can prove where our hearts are and learn on our own. It is not simple and it is not black and white, right and wrong, in this church. Our kids need to learn that.
I temper my thoughts, and what I think is “right” that the church should teach. And remember I want a church for all, and remember D&C 50:40
Quote:40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.
If it really will look drastically different in the church in years to come, people need the time and patience to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth. We all need a journey, a trek.
I am reading a book right now about racism at the turn of the century, in America and through the Depression and world wars. It is so sad to see how blacks were treated in this country. And while laws were segregating the country, and racism existed predominantly, and the church took forever to change teachings on the priesthood…there were many white people that knew it was wrong and sometimes did things to protect equal rights, but had little power to change it. But they endured through it and did what they could, and showed their hearts. I can’t help but think of what we face in our society and can’t really compare it or imagine some things that were horrible in the past, but I want to teach my kids about who I am and what I stand for, whatever our issues are today. We don’t have to wait for institutions to change for us to declare our beliefs. And our kids can learn that, and we can support them, even when others may not…especially when others in the church may not.
You make a good post, Ann. I think what it shows is how our kids will be galvanized in some things that go against what the church is currently saying. They can’t just trust it. And that is hard as a parent to watch them have to go through that. We wish for better for our kids.
What the leaders don’t seem to get is that for many of us, dissaffection, unorthodoxy, lack of commitment — these things grow over time in some people. As issues accumulate, they eventually morph into non-TR-holding, or potentially semi or less activity in some people. Such was the case for me. I started with a heartless SP over financial issues serving a mission. Then I overcame it. Next was a completely uninspired, harsh, temporal attitude toward an adoption I was involved in. I overcame that, and then next was various forms of abuse from members, followed by some leadership abuse. Each one of these things, in isolation, probably would not have pushed me over the edge, but the accumulation of such things created a huge stumbling block for me, eventually landing me here. Based on what I’m seeing in the bloggernacle, this gay policy is a stumbling block for many people now. Some don’t care, others probably embrace it as inspired, but this policy, taken when unknown things that may happen to the people in the future, may end up alienating a lot of people who find it yet another thing they have trouble accepting. This is yet another straw on the camel’s back for some people.
I am actually quite puzzled by the policy because I have seen a kinder, gentler leadership in recent years. It gave me hope, but then this policy came about, placing the sins of the parents on the children (assuming you consider being in a gay marriage sin, I know many don’t consider it sin) seemed very harsh. Particularly for a church that is trying to show compassion for people with SSA in non-doctrinal, temporal ways in Utah — even giving money to organizations that help gay people.
SilentDawning wrote:What the leaders don’t seem to get is that for many of us, dissaffection, unorthodoxy, lack of commitment — these things grow over time in some people. As issues accumulate, they eventually morph into non-TR-holding, or potentially semi or less activity in some people…Based on what I’m seeing in the bloggernacle,
this gay policy is a stumbling block for many people now.Some don’t care, others probably embrace it as inspired, but this policy, taken when unknown things that may happen to the people in the future, may end up alienating a lot of people who find it yet another thing they have trouble accepting. This is yet another straw on the camel’s back for some people…I am actually quite puzzled by the policybecause I have seen a kinder, gentler leadership in recent years. It gave me hope, but then this policy came about, placing the sins of the parents on the children (assuming you consider being in a gay marriage sin, I know many don’t consider it sin) seemed very harsh… Personally I think Church leaders didn’t expect this policy to get as much media attention as it did mostly because the similar policy for the children of polygamists didn’t so then they probably thought it was safe and made sense to do the same thing in this case. It’s not like they made a public announcement from the outset saying, “This is what we are doing and here’s why.” They basically quietly slipped it into the handbook that only local priesthood leaders will typically read and it was only after it was exposed in the news and they started seeing significant public disapproval that they tried to explain the decision after the fact.
Even before this embarrassing PR blunder, I was bothered to see that they didn’t let one of the adult daughters from “Sister Wives” get baptized because of who her parents were but at the time I thought that she might have been given special treatment because they were on TV and they didn’t want the Church to be associated with that and I didn’t know there was an official policy to threat children of polygamists differently than everyone else. Anyway as far as inoculation and apologetics, I think they are mostly for Church members that already want to tell themselves the Church is still more or less what it claims to be and anyone that doesn’t already have that goal from the outset is typically not going to find this very convincing. In fact, even many people that desperately want to believe in the Church will still have a hard time accepting a lot this the longer they really look at it closely.
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