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I know that this is a late request, but I have a bunch of thoughts written for my talk tomorrow on how receiving personal revelation and sustaining / supporting leaders interact with each other. I would appreciate any input you would like to give – either before I give it or afterward, since I plan on posting the basic outline on my personal blog some time next week. Here are the thoughts, in no particular order. Please don’t feel like you have to address all the things below. Anything about any of them will be appreciated: 1) Ultimately, our “leaders” are God, the Father, and Jesus, the Son. Sustaining and supporting them is directly related to recognizing, understanding and following the promptings of the Holy Ghost (or personal revelation), since we believe that such revelation is the most direct way that the will of God for us individually can be communicated.
2) When we speak of sustaining and supporting our mortal leaders, I believe we need to recognize that there are two distinct ways we can do this: a) in their efforts to help us “come unto Christ and be perfected in Him”; b) in their responsibilities to administer the communal organization of the Church. These are two VERY different things, and it is critical that we separate and understand them both.
3) The main difference between God’s plan in the pre-mortal Council in Heaven and Lucifer’s plan is about agency and our ability to choose and act for ourselves. (I plan on reading Moses 6:56 and 2 Nephi 2:26 – both of which talk about “agents unto themselves” [not “agents unto someone else”] and being “free forever to choose good and evil”; then I plan on describing Lucifer’s plan in terms of doing exactly and only what he [our proposed leader] would say.)
4) I want to speak plainly AGAINST two extremes: a) I’ll do whatever I want simply because I want to do it, and nobody else can tell me what to do; b) I’ll do whatever I’m told to do simply because I’m told to do it.
5) I want to talk about a BALANCE – sustaining and supporting our leaders in both areas of responsibility I mentioned above in #2 AND taking full accountability for our own growth, progression and standing with God as individual agents.
6) “The devil made me do it,” is not a valid excuse – and neither is, “My Church leader told me to do it.” Ultimately, we are responsible and accountable for what we choose to do – as agents unto OURSELVES.
7) On personal revelation, I plan on quoting Article of Faith #11 – and emphasizing that “all” includes members of the LDS Church. I also plan on quoting D&C 58:27-29 – about not being commanded in all things.
On the responsibility of leadership, I plan on quoting Mosiah 29:13-16 – and emphasizing that leading does NOT mean ruling. I also plan on quoting D&C 121:39-41 – and emphasizing that this passage followed Joseph Smith begging God to lay waste to the Church’s enemies at the time – that “almost all men” includes almost all Priesthood holders. I plan on re-reading the beginning of verse 41 – and stressing that any church leader should NEVER demand that his or her word be “obeyed” just because “I’m the leader” or “I hold the Priesthood” – that if that approach is taken, the authority and power of the Priesthood or calling are gone. 9) I plan on ending with a personal observation and note, by repeating the common statement, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” I don’t want that type of power. Let me repeat that: I don’t want that type of power. I want to be able to say, as Joseph Smith did, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
10) To me, that is the ideal balance between receiving personal revelation and sustaining and supporting our leaders – that we allow our leaders to teach us correct principles as we strive to come unto Christ and be perfected in him and help run the organization to which they’ve been called, but that we govern ourselves and forge our own personal, individual journey toward and relationship with God. We need to act as agents unto ourselves – while also allowing our leaders to act as agents for themselves in their callings and responsibilities. Balance is harder than living at the extremes, but it’s also where the greatest growth and charity occurs.
Wow, sounds like an awesome talk! Wish I could be there to hear it. If you type it out in any extended format I’d love to get a copy. My only thoughts from the topic are along the lines of the responsiblity is ours to gain a witness from the spirit before we follow ANY guidance from any church leader. I think you already had that in there. My thoughts are we can take the ‘lazy’ way and claim “if the leader is wrong the actions will be on his head” — and I have heard that excuse MANY times through my life, but I think that is a non-doctrinal Mormon cultural excuse.
Old-Timer wrote:2) When we speak of sustaining and supporting our mortal leaders, I believe we need to recognize that there are two distinct ways we can do this: a) in their efforts to help us “come unto Christ and be perfected in Him”; b) in their responsibilities to administer the communal organization of the Church. These are two VERY different things, and it is critical that we separate and understand them both.
Part B is usually where the trouble is. Trying to get things done and having to deal with personalities and styles of leadership. Sometimes you just have to keep your eye on the prize and ignore the rest. My first wife had a companion on her mission that was certifiable. When I asked her why she put up with it she said that the work was what was important.
Quote:I plan on re-reading the beginning of verse 41 – and stressing that any church leader should NEVER demand that his or her word be “obeyed” just because “I’m the leader” or “I hold the Priesthood” – that if that approach is taken, the authority and power of the Priesthood or calling are gone.
You know, I’ve never had a leader do this and have come to see that as a sort of straw man argument.
Quote:9) I plan on ending with a personal observation and note, by repeating the common statement, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” I don’t want that type of power. Let me repeat that: I don’t want that type of power. I want to be able to say, as Joseph Smith did, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
I really think this sort of power if it does exist is only on the corporate level. Ernest L. Wilkenson was an example in the way he tried to manipulate the brethren and Pres. McKay when her was old and frail. I was living in Idaho Falls when he tried to move Ricks from Rexburg and when his moves came to light he was put in his place. As far as the correct principles quote, you might want to discuss just what those principles are.
Quote:10) To me, that is the ideal balance between receiving personal revelation and sustaining and supporting our leaders – that we allow our leaders to teach us correct principles as we strive to come unto Christ and be perfected in him and help run the organization to which they’ve been called, but that we govern ourselves and forge our own personal, individual journey toward and relationship with God. We need to act as agents unto ourselves – while also allowing our leaders to act as agents for themselves in their callings and responsibilities. Balance is harder than living at the extremes, but it’s also where the greatest growth and charity occurs.
What you’re saying is to chose if we’ll do what we’ve been asked and then be prepared to accept the consequences. And to remember that we’ve made a choice when decide not to make one.
Thanks, GB and Orson. I checked in quickly before leaving to drive to the ward where I’ll be speaking. I plan on mentioning the “Do it because I said so” aspect simply because I have heard it said – by a few church leaders, but more often by husbands. Orson, I think, also mentioned in another recent thread hearing it said. I probably will make it crystal clear that I am including husbands in that statement, and that impression came strongly while reading your response, GB.
Again, thanks! Gotta run. Shouldn’t be late to the meeting.
🙄 How did it go Ray. I really liked your excellent thoughts on this subject. Came across this link in regards to this thread and wondered what everyone thought: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-14-23,00.html It went well. The Bishop thanked me, said he agreed with everything I said, and told me that it was exactly what the ward needed to hear. The talk expresses Elder Packer’s perspective very well. I can sustain and support him in his calling without agreeing with everything in the talk – and I made that general point in my own talk.
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