Inspiration?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

i guess the question to ask is are we getting a false prompting ? or is it a case of us misinterpreting or mishandling the prompting ? it could be just a case of God letting us know that a certain individual might be good for us and to give the person a second look. and in such an instance the other person might not get a prompting.

These are all excellent questions and points that I’ve thought a lot about. This is a lot of why this is only one point of many – this incident alone is not sufficient. However when woven into the whole tapestry it becomes important.

I also consider all the fallback excuses/explanations for promptings to be evidence that they aren’t real.

A lot of my whole thought process is exactly that there is no reliable way to know if a prompting is real. I have just seen too many “false positives” from myself and from others. I have also seen to many “false negatives”. As I mentioned before even Elder Rasband admitted in general conference that he couldn’t discern missionary call promptings accurately. Too many people use a “prompting” as evidence for too many things for me to give it much credence.

I also ruled out at least some of my promptings being of the devil in 2 ways. One he can’t read thoughts – therefore he could not provide promptings/thoughts about things not expressed out loud. Second we are promised that if we are fully worthy that the devil cannot enter with us into the temple and can have no influence there – which I have done. In both cases I received promptings that directly contradict other promptings. For example many times I felt a strong prompting in the temple that the Book of Mormon is not true.

Honestly I still feel “promptings” and I still use them heavily in my decision making. I find that until I get to the point that I feel good about a decision – at peace in my mind and a burning in the bosom that I have not yet thought something trough enough. The experience is still a very important one to me – the pattern of D&C 9 still holds for me (well not the praying part) – but I watch for a merging where both my heart and mind agree. In other words, I find it a powerful empowering concept – I just no longer consider it communication from God. I also give myself much more leeway to reconsider something when I receive new information or the situation changes.

[Anonymous]

Hello All,

i have had some very real experiences with the Holy Ghost. to say otherwise would be denying the Holy Ghost – the unpardonable sin lol !

one instance was during a very difficult time in my life around the end of my first marriage at 22 or 23 years of age. i may have the age i was at the time wrong but it was really neat.

i had resigned myself to staying in a bad marriage because i felt i deserved it for making bad choices. i feared for my daughters lives, that if i left they would end up messed up. not long after, maybe after a period of a few days or weeks i was sitting in a shopping mall in a pondering state. something came upon me, like a voice, something i could feel more than something i could hear where the voice said “do not hold yourself hostage because of your past transgressions. if you leave your daughters will be taken care of.”

another experience happened to me before that with the Holy Ghost operating in a different manner. it was in regard to a prompting i got while at work. i got this “burning in the bosom” feeling to go to my boss and tell him that i was sorry for not being very willing to work overtime. i had that burning in the bosom feeling for a 1/2 hour. my boss was out of the building and didn’t come back until an hour or so later. i didn’t follow through on the prompting. 2 weeks later i was laid off !

at 12 i woke up and had a similar experience (as above when i was in the shopping mall at 22, 23). a voice came upon me that was more a feeling than a voice that said ” you will be successful “.

i guess God had been in my life from time to time letting me know He’s keeping an eye on me ! at least that is what i have felt from time to time.

Mike(BLC)

[Anonymous]

Focus on the fact that he took the time to call you. Take all the claims of revelation, inspiration, divinely appointed calls etcetera with a grain of salt until YOU have the confirming revelations that they truly do represent “the finger of the Lord”. If it’s not worth devoting your time and energy to figuring out if it truly was inspired, then just put down as unknown.

In this case, the evidence is that he embellished the inspiration to make it seem supernatural, and you know it, so this time, you know it was not likely inspiration.

Fall back on the fact that he cared enough to call.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Fall back on the fact that he cared enough to call.

Amen.

That’s a much more profound statement than many people would realize.

[Anonymous]

I have also found the Spirit to be quite unreliable. On my mission I would feel “prompted” to knock on a certain door, and I’d go knock on it, and no one was home. That happened several times.

I also had a “revelation” that I would marry a certain girl; this girl ended up telling me that she had never been interested in me and never would be (happily, I never told her about the “revelation.”) I’ve had two female friends who said that it was revealed to them that they’d marry a certain guy, and neither of those marriages are going to happen. I’ve even had friends who say that God can say “Yes” to one person and “No” to the other, which seems absurd to me.

I agree with what’s been said about the fact that a simple prompting of the Spirit could prevent serious problems in some situations, yet no prompting is given. Recently I wrote a check for which I had the money, but it was in a different account than the one that the check was attached to. The check cleared, but I got a nasty overdraft fee. After all the things I’ve done for God, why didn’t he prompt me to check which account the check was attached to so I could save myself an overdraft fee? Explanations could be given, but none of them are satisfactory. This is less serious than kids dying in the back of a car, but it’s the same concept.

I’ve only really had one experience that seems possibly likely to have come from some supernatural source that might be called “the Spirit.” I’d misplaced my credit card and it was time to make a payment on it. I desperately prayed to find it, and was told by some force that it was in my glove compartment. I looked in my glove compartment and it was there. I hesitate to totally accept this as an answer from God becuase I was the one who had originally put the card in the glove compartment and so my own brain knew that it was there and could have recalled it in a time of need. I’ve also asked God to help me find other things that I needed or wanted and I didn’t find them; why weren’t those prayers answered?

I’m quite certain that people mistake their own feelings for the Spirit all the time, just like people in testimony meeting attribute things to God that he probably didn’t do: they’ll say, “God did this for me, God did this for me, God did that for me” when those things probably would have happened anyway. Humans have a long history of attributing naturalistic events to supernatural beings, such as attributing lightning to Zeus. I’m still in the process of figuring out if I believe that the supernatural exists at all. Even if there is such a thing as the Spirit and spiritual promptings, it’s troubling to me that God would create the world and us in a way that would make it so easy to mistake own feelings for spiritual promptings.

I think that people become persuaded that answers to prayers and promptings of the Spirit are always reliable by using a thought process called “remembering the hits and forgetting the misses:” if a hunch turned out to be right, they called it a “prompting” and remembered it, and if it was wrong, they made some excuse and forgot about it.

The fact that I wasn’t getting these mysterious promptings of the Spirit that seemed to flow so abundantly to other people was a major cause of my initial disaffection. Now I understand why I didn’t get them: even if the Spirit does exist and really does give revelations, it’s probably much more rare than the people in testimony meeting express that it is, and people mistake their own feelings for revelation all the time. I’ve even heard people say that when a person is living worthily, EVERY thought they have is from the Spirit, which I think is completely wrong.

[Anonymous]

InquiringMind wrote:

The fact that I wasn’t getting these mysterious promptings of the Spirit that seemed to flow so abundantly to other people was a major cause of my initial disaffection. Now I understand why I didn’t get them: even if the Spirit does exist and really does give revelations, it’s probably much more rare than the people in testimony meeting express that it is, and people mistake their own feelings for revelation all the time. I’ve even heard people say that when a person is living worthily, EVERY thought they have is from the Spirit, which I think is completely wrong.

Once we lose the magical/supernatural worldview, we have to start realizing that all revelation comes from within. The problem is that this process of revelation is notoriously unreliable, yet at times it is incredibly…inspired.

I believe that Joseph Smith had a very active imagination and was often deeply and powerfully inspired. I also think that he was incredibly flawed, and some of his ‘revelations’ come from the flawed worldview. The question is how do we sort that.

If we live with a worldview that assumes that there is a big guy out there who is the definitive source of truth, and that he only communicates his will through his prophets through special revelatory processes, then I think we will continually be frustrated by the impefections of received prophetic insight in scripture, and the lack of any real prophetic insight in the current leadership.

Consider this: if there were a single divine consciousness that communicates with clarity through his prophets in visions and literal dictation, then why is there no cohesively clear doctrine as to what he requires of us? We speak of first principles: of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, of repentance, of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and of the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of hands. Yet, for the vast majority of world inhabitants, these four principles are non-starters, and for all of us, they do not really define what we are to do on a daily basis. You would think that three basic questions might be answered:

1. Ontology: Who am I, who are you, and who is God?

2. Epistemology: How do I go about knowing truth?

3. Ethics: What shall I do?

In the original LDS church, ontology floated around: the definition of god and human nature floated about, all initially within the protestant/puritan christianity concepts of northern new england of the early 19th century. But there are many other ontologies represented in scripture, and man’s nature as well as god has no clear, cohesive definition.

If we evaluate the LDS ontology: As man is God once was, and as God is, man may become. This is a foundational ontology of mormonism. It says what man and god are. It’s brilliant…and also speculative and controversial. “I don’t think we teach it, I don’t think we preach it”.

If we evaluate LDS epistemology, we find two statements.

1. “All truth is circumscribed into the Gospel”. This is referred to in the temple, as well as explicitly in many statements by BH Roberts, Henry Eyring, and others, with the charge that we should seek all truth and we are not required to believe something that isn’t true.

2. “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moroni 10:5). This is the standard of truth for the church today. If you feel good about it, and if it’s taught by the brethren and in scripture, then it must be true. Things that do not fit this standard of truth are not to be taught, for there are some truths that are not useful.

If we evaluate LDS ethics, we come down to a single statement: “Follow the prophet, he knows the way, and we’ll never be led astray.” We are under covenant to obey…not god’s commandments, but we owe our obedience exclusively to 15 men.

Amid the ontology, epistemology, and ethics of mormonism, where does a model fit that there is a god who will explicity tell you what to do and that it will always be true? Only through the channel of ‘follow the prophet’, nothing else today matters. Then if the prophet is supposed to tell us what to do, how come is it that there has been almost no active revelation since 1844? And even when you look at the ‘revelations’ of the prophet joseph smith, there is a quite a declining curve of numbers between 1829 and 1844. It all doesn’t make sense if there is a god who is active in teaching us what to do.

So I’m left with the distinct possibility, even extreme probability, that there is no ‘one god’ out there: a single, personal consciousness that dictates with accuracy what people are to do.

Let me use a quick metaphor here: Santa Claus does not exist in personal fact, and I have come to realize that in truth. On the other hand, Santa Claus exists in spirit — all the time — when people are kind to one another and give from their hearts. So I believe in Santa Claus…not the physical one.

So with respect to ‘god’, when I realize that there isn’t a ‘one god’ out there, in terms of a single consciousness who is both physical and omnipresent, who has a definitive plan for mankind yet he doesn’t reveal it with any degree of clarity, who is one, but his prophets can’t agree on much at all. Instead of the distinctly illogical and impossible concept of a being who is physical, omnipotent, omniscient, all-good, and omni-present, I can think of ‘god’ in much the same way that Jesus taught: That when we are one with the Way, we are gods.

Then if I can go to Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the truly inspired revelations of Joseph Smith, and see that god’s omnipresence is absolute — in terms of the power of god being 100% equated with natural law. Wow, a definition I can heartily agree with: there is an absolute power out there in the universe — the power of god — and if I look into the heavens and observe the workings of this power, I am seeing god moving in his majesty and glory. Wow — When I look at nature, I’m looking at god. I agree. I AGREE. It’s WONDERFUL. It’s also nothing like a personal physical being. Nature does not have a single consciousness. It is not a willful creator. It creates, absolutely creates all that is, but it is not a ‘mind’ — not in any traditional sense.

How then to I reconcile Jesus’ statement that he is the son of god, or that we can be gods? What the Atonement demonstrates is that if we repent and become one with god, we can become gods. In other words, “Being” in its purest sense of the word, is something that exists in harmony with the power of god. If i violate the laws of being, then I will not ‘be’ — I die. I live because I am, and I am because of my working in harmony, at some level, with the powers of nature. The more in harmony I am with the powers of nature, the more I am ONE, the more I AM. To say that I AM is to recognize that by virtue of my harmony with the power of god, I fully and authentically exist. And this oneness is a connection to a network of truth, power, and light that is within all that is. That is to be god. That is to be one. That is to fully and authentically BE. I AM.

You want to find god? Look inside and see. Yes, you’re going to find things that are not god within. We have programmed within us both the Way of Eternal Life, and the Way of death. We have to realize that we, ourselves, are not just the active program running when we are awake. Our waking consciousness is only part of who we are. we are also the natural, greedy, animal that sometimes might be called satan, and we also have a set of programs, completely aware of all of that which we have learned and are, and these programs are not directly accessible to the conscious mind. These programs are sometimes called our “non-conscious”, or the “collective subconscious” of Jung, or our Spirit, or our Divine Nature, or “The Light of Christ”, or “the Holy Ghost”.

In cognitive neurological terms, the non-conscious is a modular construct in our minds that works in the background and especially active when we sleep. It is not our conscious mind. It is like a permanent, omniscient companion.

When you found the license, you let go of conscious thought, and the non-conscious, which is fully aware of all your prior sensory experiences, was able imply to you where it was. Because you asked an entity through prayer, and an entity outside of your conscious thought answered, you were communicating….with god. the only god with whom we have to do.

I’m quite serious about this. Whether or not there is an entity “out there” that is watching over us like santa, the reality is that the last few inches of inspiration happens within the walls of our physical brain. Our fantastic minds are much more than our conscious thought, but in fact entire systems that took millions of years to perfect. Our conscious thought only taps 10% of the processing power. The remaining processing power is available for someone a lot smarter than us, with nearly omniscient, photographic recall, who knows everything we know, and much more: has divinely programmed information that we need to tap into to make decisions in our lives. If we recognize our divine nature for what it is: god, then we can learn both the nature of god (an imperfect being who is in harmony with the Way), as well as our own nature (an imperfect being who needs to be in harmony with the Way).

This model explains a lot — even if most LDS and people here will reject what I say.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

even if most LDS and people here will reject what I say.

Do you really think most people here will reject what you said?

I certainly don’t.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

even if most LDS and people here will reject what I say.

Do you really think most people here will reject what you said?

I certainly don’t.

Sounds good to me. I like how the force inside of you works no matter what you believe. There may be various ways to get more in tune and access that part of yourself, but everyone has a subconsious mind that ‘works.’ This model explains alot! :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

@inquiringminds

Some of your thoughts are directly discussed here:

http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/

and here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=752V173e31o&feature=share” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=752V173e31o&feature=share

If you watch and read this you will learn some of the jargon for exactly what you are referring to. Confirmation bias makes the human world go round.

[Anonymous]

bc_pg, the article was great and the movie made some good logical points. I haven’t read the whole article yet, because it’s long, but there were some great ideas in there. I liked the Easy Answer to the Hard Question: “Why do smart people believe weird things? Because they are skilled at defending beliefs that they acquired in non-smart ways.” Confirmation bias is insidious and I see myself doing it in many areas of my life. It was fascinating to see that people think that everyone else believes in God for a different reason than they do: people believe that they themselves are acting rationally, while everyone else is acting emotionally, even though they reached the same conclusion. I struggle a little with rejecting the literal truth of the claims of the Church because there are plenty of people who are smarter and more educated than me who accept them: Richard Bushman and Hugh Nibley are two examples. Am I prepared to say that I think that Bushman and Nibley are wrong about the Church and that they are hopelessly deceived? I can’t talk to Nibley, but Bushman is still around. These individuals have undoubtedly done much more historical research than me and have weighed the arguments and have found that the Church is likely to be what it claims to be. How can I say that they are wrong?

[Anonymous]

@inquiringmind

I’m glad you enjoyed the links.

If you haven’t heard of logical fallacies they may also interest you. It came to mind since “appeal to authority”/”argument from authority” is one of them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies” class=”bbcode_url”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I really hope this doesn’t come off as annoying – I’m not trying to put you down – it was just that your mentioning smart people believing triggered “logical fallacies” in my mind which to me is directly related with the other things we’ve been discussing.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

These individuals have undoubtedly done much more historical research than me and have weighed the arguments and have found that the Church is likely to be what it claims to be. How can I say that they are wrong?

I wonder if you talked to them candidly and in depth about their beliefs if you would find that they are more different from the mainstream church dogma than might first expect.

[Anonymous]

Once again – this happens in other churches, but in different ways.

Our hierarchy does lend itself to persons in positions of authority getting these inspirations for those under their charge – but these things still happen in other churches.

I take my kids to “Kid’s Town” Sunday evenings at another church. My wife does not usually go, although she is listed as a parent to our children. Recently the Children’s Pastor called and said that after praying for inspiration they felt directed to call DW and ask her to help watch kids once a month during the Sunday morning service. My wife explained that we are Mormons and attend our LDS meetings Sunday mornings and that her husband (me) usually takes the kids to “Kid’s Town” in the evenings when able.

That in itself was somewhat odd but the next day DW’s friend was over visiting and received the same call (complete with the references to praying for inspiration and being led to call).

I believe that they really do pray before making these phone calls – I also believe that referencing “inspiration” may lead to higher acceptance rates – perhaps the Children’s Pastor sees this as a win-win.

OTOH-

After we lost our youngest child the RS pres. came to DW and said that she felt inspired that maybe DW was feeling at fault/guilt for the loss. God wanted her to know that DW is not to blame.

DW has mentioned this repeatedly over the years as a moment of vital importance. I do not know if divine inspiration was at play. It is possible that a perceptive person or a person knowledgeable about grieving could come to this conclusion on their own. But to DW, the claim of inspiration made all the difference and I’m not about to take that away from her.

[Anonymous]

Finally found a link that pertains to this thread:

Quote:

http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/

[Author]

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