Institutionalized denial?

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

On Own Now wrote:

Thanks OON. I do think I see what you are saying about them honestly caring, but not seeing a way to change what they see as doctrine.

It just saddens me that such an important item (reach out to those that are gay, NOT shun them!) is on a website that most members don’t know about. For me it parallels the essays. It feels mainly about plausible deniability in the future. Why not have a quick review of what is on Mormonsandgays.org between conference sessions?

I will tell you straight up, that if I were to walk into my YSA Ward, and ask most of them what the Church’s doctrine is regarding LGBTQ members/people, the majority would tell you that the Church cannot support gay marriage, that it’s not a sin to be sexually attracted to the same sex but it is to act on it, and that we are to love everyone, regardless. They would also tell you that the Church has always taught this. I know I’m generalizing here, but this is the attitude I’ve encountered time and time again. Most are clueless that the Church’s position has evolved. But in my experience, it really has.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

Hero worship. They are not “not extraordinary men”…they are “Men of GOD”.

From a certain perspective, all the “Men of God” through all history have been regular men with demanding/extraordinary callings. There is no apostasy in this.

I get it Rob. The dominant culture does promote the hero worship. Is there room for diverse voices and opinions in the church or should the church be one unified homogenous group? Those are the questions we face both individually and collectively.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Is there room for diverse voices and opinions in the church or should the church be one unified homogenous group?

The further you get into Fowlers levels (past 3), I think the diversity and tolerance grows. But, I have found that the imposed required silence also grows…diverse voices are not appreciated: they engender uncomfortable glances, worried expressions, and being called into the bishop’s office for the “are you reading your scriptures” discussion.

I find it confusing Roy,…the scripture that says: “Till we all come to a unity of the faith”…. We have apostles and other officers to help us come to a unity. As we grow into the diverse voices BECAUSE we are becoming more nuanced, the unity doesn’t grow, it widens. To share feelings or concerns increases this widening because it splits people: TBM can’t tolerate the idea that the prophet is human and probably says a bunch of cuss words when he stubs his toe. We are willing to bend over backward in our hero worship to completely overlook things, even at the expense of creating denial that becomes institutionalized, for the sake of maintaining this idea.

I think it is dangerous to ever be placed in a position to deny conscience for the sake of maintaining a cause. If something happens that is abusive, how can I tolerate it?…and what justice is there in being forbidden to do that because doing so is considered “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed”?

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

Hero worship. They are not “not extraordinary men”…they are “Men of GOD”.

I won’t begin to argue that what you describe does not exist in the church, but it does not exist in my mind, and frankly that is all that matters to me. By the way I have heard multiple local leaders speak out against hero worship, and one actually said, in a church meeting, “leaders are ordinary men…” and the context was the top 15.

I also had another thought regarding “specks.”

Expectations are everything. Many LDS writers addressing the topic of faith crisis have said the problem is when expectations are out of whack with reality, that is what causes faith crisis. Yes, our modern LDS culture plays a huge part in creating expectations, but some of the problem is our personal context.

There are a few gold mining shows on cable channels, watching these we can easily see that miners sift many tons of dirt to get a few ounces of gold. This is the “gold rich” dirt. Large nuggets are very rare, most of it comes in the form of tiny little flakes.

If I say “that is good dirt, it has a lot of gold in it” someone that is not familiar with that type of mining could easily assume there would be several ounces per cubic yard when the reality is 100’s of times less.

When we say “there is divinity in our church” context is everything. Some will expect a thick vein of solid gold, others may expect heavy nuggets. The experienced “gold miners” know that “good ground” can produce several ounces a day when you sift through a hundred tons per hour.

Every human has divine potential.

Understandably most of the complaints of people in FC revolve around the expectations that “the church” supports. My position is after we sit up and say “okay, I was wrong, my expectations were out of touch with reality” then we sit in the drivers seat. We don’t need to worry about who is driving wrong where, we can take our own path – follow our own light. Search for the gold, when you get the process down you can make a living off those tiny little specks.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

The further you get into Fowlers levels (past 3), I think the diversity and tolerance grows. But, I have found that the imposed required silence also grows…diverse voices are not appreciated: they engender uncomfortable glances, worried expressions, and being called into the bishop’s office for the “are you reading your scriptures” discussion.

Getting further into Fowler’s levels doesn’t require staying with or returning to the organization(s) one was in during stage 3. I think that point gets lost. Stage 5 isn’t about returning to the LDS church. The idea of staying in the LDS church as a sign of transitioning into stage 5 is likely nothing more than a silhouette that got burned into our retinas from the blinding light of the “one true church” mindset from stage 3. Residuals. Stage 5 might be more about finding peace with wherever you’re at, even if it is the loathsome organization you belonged to in stage 3.

I might phrase “imposed required silence” as “showing a greater sense of restraint.” I don’t want to put words in his mouth but Jesus might call offering up a diverse voice where it is not appreciated as “pearls before swine.” I’m not a fan of the metaphor, someone is labeled a swine. Still, if we do offer up a diverse voice it must be because we have some faith that it will make a difference, however small.

Uncomfortable glances, worried expressions, and bishop’s offices have as much power as you give them. I might also ask, who is requiring the silence, church members or our own internal voice?

Rob4Hope wrote:

I find it confusing Roy,…the scripture that says: “Till we all come to a unity of the faith”…. We have apostles and other officers to help us come to a unity. As we grow into the diverse voices BECAUSE we are becoming more nuanced, the unity doesn’t grow, it widens. To share feelings or concerns increases this widening because it splits people: TBM can’t tolerate the idea that the prophet is human and probably says a bunch of cuss words when he stubs his toe. We are willing to bend over backward in our hero worship to completely overlook things, even at the expense of creating denial that becomes institutionalized, for the sake of maintaining this idea.

This was directed at Roy so I’ll speak my peace then butt out. I’ve found that a faith crisis helped me be more united. Before I limited myself to being united with church members. After the crisis I found I could unite with humanity. Maybe I’ll have another crisis and unite myself with Gaia, time will tell. I’ve found that being tolerant of diverse views is even more uniting than the alternative.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

…the unity doesn’t grow, it widens.

Unity in Love can grow as we mature, even when we personally hold very different ideas.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Rob4Hope wrote:

…the unity doesn’t grow, it widens.

Unity in Love can grow as we mature, even when we personally hold very different ideas.

That Orson,…is an answer I can understand and accept. VERY timely insight. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

I’ve enjoyed this thread and everyone’s responses.

I think the feeling that one has been lied to or the feeling the institution is in denial is an opinion each of us comes to on our own.

Rob, to get back to you as I said I would…my earlier posts were not intended to be condescending, but perhaps I wasn’t careful with expressing myself.

When I try to go back and recreate what my thoughts were, I think I was just trying to express that I see things differently and that is ok. I certainly see your views to be valid, and I understand based on how you are phrasing questions how you are trying to process these things. I see you expressing frustration by wanting others (the church, leaders, members) to be the way you think they should be in an ideal organization that professes to be “godly”. And there is frustration that they don’t. They won’t talk about history sufficiently. They make mistakes. They claim they aren’t making mistakes. They claim great power to be leaders beyond mortal leaders. They are revered and talked about by others as being greater than what they are.

These are the feelings I am picking up on. And I cannot argue your frustration you express. It’s pretty natural. It is why this website has visitors. I have many of the same thoughts and feelings, I’m not beyond them or more enlightened than anyone else.

Perhaps what I am trying to say is to step back from getting bogged down with general, wide sweeping statements as if the “church” is all one thing as seen by one perspective, and I think you can get to a place in your journey where you see the complexity of the church itself that leads to a wide array of opinions and options. If it could simply be argued “true” or “false” based on certain set of facts or quotes, someone would have written that book by now and the church would crumble as a proven inconsequential fraud.

But I find that when I observe my views internally, to understand what is truth and what is good (which I’m still seeking…I’m pretty harsh on myself as the idiot struggling to find words to express myself to others), I find the church to be a part of such a complex thing no one yet has figured out, and beyond that, the gospel truth to be so abstract…that I can find within that complex and mythical place for my unique views and opinions to ring true to me, and I can let go of caring what one leader said about one topic in one point in time. I try to place such data points together to draw the whole picture…not focus on one point (which may or may not be a good point in and of itself). I do it wrong often…but so do they. We all do.

Perhaps they have been in denial at times.

Perhaps some leaders have been less than perfectly honest at times, and chose policies and teachings that are less than perfect and not entirely from God. There are probably plenty of examples.

I do not give them a pass for that. But I do not expect it to be different than that. The church is what it is. It either has value to stretching me beyond myself, or it has no value and can be left alone. The value is not on what others say or do, it is inside me whether it is good for me or not.

Rob4Hope wrote:

I have found that the imposed required silence also grows…diverse voices are not appreciated: they engender uncomfortable glances, worried expressions, and being called into the bishop’s office for the “are you reading your scriptures” discussion.

Perhaps that is partially true at times. My guess is you have experienced that, or felt that is the way they will treat you.

But regardless of what others try to impose, what they appreciate, what causes them to glance this way or that, or being called into offices to discuss it…none of those actions change what is true or what is not true. It is just other imperfect mortals on the other side of the bishop’s desk trying to do what they believe in, and you on your side trying to follow your heart.

So…I am sorry if I directed my prior thoughts to you directly in a condescending way…whereas I should more tactfully share my views in general…but I simply feel that I want to find truth that leads to me being happy and peaceful. I don’t care if the church has it or doesn’t. I will find it. I will act the way my God wants me to act. I do not expect the church to be perfect before I can believe in it. Every example others can share about the wrong things the church does is valid and possibly correct as one data point to process. I believe the church will continue to root out the wrong things it teaches or does, and continue to move towards greater truth and enlightenment.

I see it on its journey to become what it needs to become.

I have also come to include it is critical in my journey because I have not found a way to progress without the influence of the church and it’s goodness in my life, despite all else that pisses me off about it.

I am on my own journey. Not independent of the church, but conjunctive to it, with other religions, with others who are my brothers and sisters. We are all “in process”.

I am not sure in any of that makes sense. Just the thoughts that I have at this moment. Thanks for listening. As I said, I enjoy this thread. I enjoy your thoughts and questions that make me think about why I believe what I believe. There is so much out there to learn…I hope to try to process some of it in a way that makes it worth my time and effort to wrestle with it.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

On top of that, it looks like most top Church leaders are basically hardliners that don’t feel like it is their place to change commandments that supposedly came directly from God no matter what the consequences.

I would agree with a lot of that DA, and perhaps this is the thing that frustrates us. It seems the commandments are “off the table” to review, because they came from God. So with that premise, the various opinions and teachings and thoughts get framed around what could be explanations for things (parents not teaching correctly, individuals not understanding correctly, individuals sinning and choosing incorrectly)…I mean, none of those are completely wrong in some situations there may be blame enough to go around. I think it is hard for some to accept the possibility that what they thought was immovable commandments from God, might also be just as plausible of blame than the other areas of blame they first think of to pacify their faith.

Just because they don’t think it is possible, is that denial, or is that just over confident in their faith? Was BRM ignorant or just had a dishonest agenda?

So much of this all still relies on humans interpreting meaning to things. It’s hard to nail down what is denial, and about what exactly.

[Anonymous]

Heber, your thoughts are beautiful to read and well received. Thank you. It was softly delivered, but also really got me thinking. I like those types of posts,…the ones that REALLY get me thinking.

Heber, you have taken a higher level view of things with how you have expressed yourself. It seems as though you don’t fixate on the minutia, but see the entire church organization as evolving and fluid–it too is working out its kinks. Denial exists on several things which you have acknowledged. There are some good things as well which you have also acknowledged. But,..in the midst of the trees, you are seeing the forest. That was the feeling I got when reading your thread.

I catch myself stuck with a laser focus on some of the specifics that just make me want to SCREAM! They make me so angry. HOW DARE THE CHURCH TELL ME HOW TO LIVE WHEN THEY LIE! That kindof thing.

You have also expressed a differentiation of character and perspective that separates you from the umbrella hive type mentality I see exhibited in so many TBM people. This differentiation comes across as peaceful, liberating, freeing, and yet stabilizing. That was the feel i got from reading the thread.

I often look at how angry I get, the betrayal stage. I move sometimes into a more peaceful “live and let live” place,..and that is nice. Then I look at some of the things I feel I’ve lost (and I have lost MUCH!) because I somehow got stuck in this betrayal place. I’ve betrayed plenty…I’m not a hypocrite, I know my situation. But I expected more from the LDS faith, from the leaders. I was raised to expect more, and when you have been cocooned your entire life in LDS circles of like minded people (and using the idea of a hive mentality is VERY accurate), it shelters you: there was never an “attack” that could be launched against the church that couldn’t be though out of, explained away, discredited, or simply discarded.

Everything changed when I hit my own faith crisis, and found out, for myself, a soft place in the underside of the organization and leadership I revered my entire life. I DO believe there is a relationship between my current level of angst (which is mighty!) and how much TBM I myself really was. The church had all the answers…ALL OF THEM…and to discover I have believed a lie my whole life makes me quite angry.

I hope everyone out there can tolerate my venom…I spew it all over the place. I know I do. I’m sorry for my end of being harsh as well….

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

I hope everyone out there can tolerate my venom…I spew it all over the place. I know I do. I’m sorry for my end of being harsh as well….

I personally can tolerate a lot. I have been there, felt the same feelings, thought the same thoughts. I appreciate your desire for personal growth, that’s what it takes.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

It seems as though you don’t fixate on the minutia, but see the entire church organization as evolving and fluid–it too is working out its kinks. Denial exists on several things which you have acknowledged. There are some good things as well which you have also acknowledged. But,..in the midst of the trees, you are seeing the forest.

That’s a good way to say it. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

Rob4Hope wrote:

…the unity doesn’t grow, it widens.

Unity in Love can grow as we mature, even when we personally hold very different ideas.

Yes, this is my answer. Are non-members allowed in Zion? Can a person have differences of opinion and still be part of a community of “one mind and one heart”? I believe so. The answer is through Love and Respect.

Heber13 wrote:

But regardless of what others try to impose, what they appreciate, what causes them to glance this way or that, or being called into offices to discuss it…none of those actions change what is true or what is not true. It is just other imperfect mortals on the other side of the bishop’s desk trying to do what they believe in, and you on your side trying to follow your heart…[snip]…I am on my own journey. Not independent of the church, but conjunctive to it, with other religions, with others who are my brothers and sisters. We are all “in process”.

Rob4Hope wrote:

You have also expressed a differentiation of character and perspective that separates you from the umbrella hive type mentality I see exhibited in so many TBM people. This differentiation comes across as peaceful, liberating, freeing, and yet stabilizing. That was the feel i got from reading the thread.

For me, I have found it helpful to participate in other churches. I feel that I am expanding my sense of community. The LDS church is my home church and that is ok … yet it doesn’t need to be my whole world. Things still frustrate me… but they frustrate me less when it isn’t all tied up with my sense of self worth. It can be just a quirky church you attend with its own strengths and weaknesses.

[Anonymous]

Roy, do you find other churches you visit are in any less denial (if we are using that term for avoiding airing dirty laundry)? Because that has been one thing I’ve observed as I visit other religions…the LDS church isn’t the only church with struggles on how to deal with mortals in their congregations that are imperfect, how things are explained imperfectly, and how people misunderstand things and aren’t always corrected timely.

I see good things in other churches and religions. It often makes me think that God isn’t a respecter of persons, and may not care what religion is “His”…but that seems to come from mortals trying to pacify their fears and find security and camaraderie.

God wants us to be nice, and grow up to be good people. Since we all make mistakes, he is more interested in what we do about it.

And I think if the LDS church tried too long to avoid talking openly about some things…if it was a mistake in there somewhere (I’m not sure what)…then the laws of justice are bringing consequences to the church in the form of loss of commitment from people. As that happens, the leadership will turn the ship and correct itself…open up archives (they’ve done that), opened up dialogue (they’ve done that), joined the Internet town hall formats (they’ve done that), challenged leaders to find out what people think (they’ve done that), published essays (they’ve done that)…

I’ll stop there because the taste left in my mouth is they aren’t doing enough fast enough, and should have corrected things earlier…and it is biting them in butt because of it. My hope is they will keep trying…and keep moving towards truth.

I just think perhaps it helps keep my perspective a little kinder and more patient when I see the other religions that struggle with their things as well. Perhaps others don’t have such strong authority claims…but…they seem to have their own challenges, sometimes because they lack things the LDS church has. And vice versa.

Have you experienced that view that I have?

[Anonymous]

We are hashing this out. At a very high level, let me list the things that I struggle with and where I think institutional denial exists. If others can add to the list, I would be grateful, simply because it would be nice to just get all the stuff exposed in one big shot. PS….I should have done this much earlier in the thread…but better late than never…

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