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I am trying to reconcile the ideas of the “How To Stay” essay, which I considered to be an answer to many prayers, with my old-fashioned idea of integrity. I totally get the parts about moving past the “True/false” binary world view and lowering expectations. I am in full support of keeping my family together and my marriage intact, and I’m willing to make some pretty serious life-long sacrifices in that department. When I first read the essay my heart leaped and I said to myself, “Wow, this TOTALLY fits me. Every bit of it! This is my answer.” But now that I’ve thought about it a bit, I’m having some doubts… (seems to be the story of my life. lol)
The part I’m getting hung-up on is that the whole premise of the “Stay LDS” strategy seems to be based on subterfuge. For example, It means tactically asking for callings that won’t expose my doubts. It means ignoring “difficult” doctrine and/or inaccurate history that is taught on Sunday. It means keeping my doubts a secret from ward leaders and family and friends who aren’t ready or able to handle it. It means lying in temple recommend interviews (I mean, can I REALLY say I “have a testimony of the Restoration” if I don’t believe Joseph was a prophet or the LDS church is the only true and living church of Jesus Christ? Can I really say I “sustain Thomas S Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator” if I just think he’s a really good guy, but not a prophet in the way that the interviewer means?)
If I remain a member of the LDS church, and continue to attend meetings, join in prayers, sing hymns, publicly sustain leaders, etc…aren’t I implicitly saying, to everyone that sees me doing it, that I believe it?
There are some aspects of this approach that just strike as, well, dishonest. Am I thinking about this in the wrong way?
I am actually looking forward to hearing answers on this because I have felt this way too. Quote:There are some aspects of this approach that just strike as, well, dishonest. Am I thinking about this in the wrong way?
Yep.
I don’t have much time right now, but, yeah, you’re thinking about it in the wrong way. It really is a paradigm shift, but there doesn’t have to be any dishonesty at all – even in staying vibrantly active. I will try to get to this at some point soon, but all I can say right now is that it requires a change of perspective – but it doesn’t require giving up anything important, especially honesty.
A couple quick thoughts: 1 – personally, I really do believe that integrity is important. I don’t advocate saying or doing anything that is dishonest.
2 – don’t assume that everyone at church other than you is doubt-free or has the exact same lock-step view on every issue. There are many good, “worthy” ward members who don’t accept polygamy or who recognize that prophets have said things that contradict each other or who haven’t gotten a clear testimony of the BOM. Unlike the Primary song, faith is NOT knowing.
3 – remember that faith and your spiritual life is a journey, not a destination. Things like the TR questions are asked at a set point in time, but you are in constant motion with a direction. Stay as open-minded as you can. You only run into an integrity issue when you have an anti-testimony or an un-testimony. Being a decided atheist and saying you believe in God is dishonest. Not knowing whether God exists, but hoping that he does and being willing to act on that hope – guess what – that IS faith. It just doesn’t sound like faith when everyone at church is throwing out phrases like “know” and “beyond a shadow of a doubt,” and so on. Now maybe they really do, or maybe you are just being more introspective about your own integrity than they are. Maybe they are just throwing out cliches because it’s the lingo everyone uses, not because they have certain knowledge.
I think the problem comes when we believe that “integrity” is black and white; when we really think that each answer we give is 100% true, or not. It never is. Integrity IS relative. Always.
One example: my wife puts on a new outfit and asks me “does this make me look fat?” Part of me may think it does (in a current worldly sort of way…), but am I not answering with integrity if I say “no honey, you look great in it!” From the standpoint of love, this is the most integrous answer.
The way I think integrity works is behaving from the perspective of love as contrasted with fear. I resonate with new thought spirituality in this regard. An outline of this is found here:
http://www.destinyunveiled.com/documents/two_voices.pdf So I try to approach each thought and action in my life from the perspective of love, rather than fear. IOW, which answer/action is more consistent with love, rather than fear. Of course this is the core of Christ’s teachings, so how could you go wrong with that?!
Shattered wrote:…I mean, can I REALLY say I “have a testimony of the Restoration” if I don’t believe Joseph was a prophet or the LDS church is the only true and living church of Jesus Christ? Can I really say I “sustain Thomas S Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator” if I just think he’s a really good guy, but not a prophet in the way that the interviewer means?
How do you really know what the interviewer means? Seriously, it may be a Ray or HiJolly sitting across from you. We tend to project our own thoughts onto other people. This has been a big hurtle for me to get over as well, just because I felt previously illusioned does not mean others are “illusioned.”
I also see a lot of this difficulty (which is very common BTW, even to be expected by people going through this process – you are right now exactly where you need to be in the process) lies in definitions. Try to ease up on what you always thought were hard and fast definitions. The Joseph Smith RS/Priesthood manual says something like “anyone who professes the spirit of Christ is a prophet.” The “restoration” will mean to you whatever it honestly means to you. Take some time and ponder all of these things while trying to look for the good. The results can be called “being tutored by the spirit” and you will find personal valid meanings for things in ways that you had never thought possible.
This whole process is what I see as the mission of StayLDS – and I love engaging in it!
Glad you’re with us! Let’s take it one step at a time. It takes time, like learning a new language, you can’t shortcut it. You are building an entirely new paradigm after all. If your desire is to build it compatible with church activity I think you’ll be surprised at how well it will fit down the road – while it is completely honest, intellectual, and accommodating all at the same time.
I wanted to add to the already good answers with this — that essay is not the new absolute truth, the new one correct answer. It is just a bunch of ideas compiled from people who have worked on the problem in their personal life. The essay only suggests possible avenues. It doesn’t even apply to the vast majority of active members of the Church. It was written by former disaffected members to other disaffected members. Once you are on this dark and lonely path, it is all up to you. There is a light at the end though. I promise you that. We just can’t tell you how to get there. That is up to you. When you get there, your path was right.
I am active in Church. I teach classes. I enjoy participating. I even came back to a point where I am not troubled participating in priesthood blessings and ordinances. I even like the temple more than a lot of people that pass through disaffection. I choose not to have a temple recommend though. I totally feel for what is going through your mind and heart. I can answer most of the questions and feel I am honest. There are a couple though that I don’t think members of the Church would agree with my reconciliation. It’s enough of a gap and difference that I would rather not be put in a position to defend my views. I am totally comfortable and at peace with God. I don’t think others would understand. So for the past couple years, I just avoid that issue.
So if you don’t feel honest about your answers, then disagree with the approach in the essay. You won’t offend anyone here if you think that part of the essay is wrong. It might just be wrong. Your answers are yours. You own them.
Valoel wrote:IOnce you are on this dark and lonely path, it is all up to you. There is a light at the end though. I promise you that. We just can’t tell you how to get there. That is up to you. When you get there, your path was right.
Love all this, Val! I admire your approach to life, and congratulate you for finding YOUR path!Valoel wrote:When you get there, your path was right.
So true!
Bring back an old topic here, I’ve been wondering about this myself lately, I can rephrase the questions to make myself more comfortable, but I have a lingering feeling that reminds me that although I may then be comfortable the interviewer would not be if I shared my interpretation.
I agree that my journey is mine and I am responsible for it, but doesn’t my membership in the church say something to the general public as well as the other members in the church? what I mean is, if I remain ‘Mormon’ that means people think I believe the BOM is scripture just like the Bible, JS was a Prophet, restored the Gospel, Mormonism is the only way back to HF presence through the ordinances of the Temple, etc. Also other members may think we mean the same thing when we say the church is true.
I don’t know that I want that kind of misunderstanding. I also don’t feel like it’s terrible that every once in awhile I enjoy going out and having a drink with friends, (1 or 2 max) yet if I stated this in a TR interview I’d be denied the recommend.
Quote:I have a lingering feeling that reminds me that although I may then be comfortable the interviewer would not be if I shared my interpretation.
So what?
I don’t mean that to be flippant, but I’m responsible for how I, and I alone, interpret my answers. I’m not about to let my concern over what someone else might think of my answers influence my own desired path. My answers are mine – and I think most members who struggle would be shocked and amazed at how many other people who don’t struggle at all with their answers do so knowing full well that they can’t share the details of how they’ve constructed their answers with the interviewer.
The interviewer isn’t supposed to rate or judge the “how” or the “why”. All that is supposed to matter is the sincere “what”. If the answers are sincere, then attendance is between you and God. Period.
At least, that’s how I view it, and I’ve sat on both sides of the recommend interview.
Quote:I have a lingering feeling that reminds me that although I may then be comfortable the interviewer would not be if I shared my interpretation.
I’m with Ray. It’s
NOTbetween you and the interviewer. It’s between you and God.
And the most righteous interviewers should agree with that completely.
I understand the “towing the party lines” impressions. I also think a meaningful part of this journey is to transcend these mortal impressions, and get to the source – however you can understand that. Personal honesty is the key, and your connection with the divine. I realize a lot of people may not grasp what these words mean, I’m not sure I fully understand, but I believe this journey will take us to that understanding. If we will allow it to.
Back to the immediate subject, it may be helpful to consider that these questions were written by fallible human beings, that are trying to do their best, and are trying to bring people closer to God. Don’t let the humanity distance you from God. If God tells you he would word the questions slightly different – believe Him. Answer to Him. Come to peace with that. If you are sincerely willing to become it will come.
Orson wrote:It’s between you and God.
I totally agree with this, Orson. To me, it has been very liberating to be honest, and to have integrity to what I really feel, instead of fearing that my doubts may be not acceptable to others, or not be “right”.God knows my heart and my intentions, and just how important these gospel principles are to me that I spend this time studying it out so much and wanting it to make sense to me. I try to remember that the church is there to help my family, and to help me, and the leaders that are interviewing me are there to help me, not judge me as acceptable or not. But even if they do…so what? I’m not living to please them. I’m living to find peace and improve my character, incluidng honesty and intergrity.
I also do not think an interview is the time for me to get into a 2 hr discussion about the details of polygamy and Joseph Smith or Bushman’s recorded history…so I pull back on the detail and stay at a high level, and honestly I can say I still believe in God. I still live the Word of Wisdom (even if I don’t really have a testimony any more that it really matters).
So I don’t feel I have come here to be anonymous on a website and hide my doubts to people at church…I participate here and it helps me work through some issues and see things in a new paradigm where the interview questions can be answered both “Yes” and “No” to some degree…so I can honestly say “Yes” and not have it impact my journey to find God. It has taken me a while, but I’m becoming more comfortable with my current views, even if they are more liberal…I still think they are acceptable to the church and the church is grand enough to accommodate even me.
RebelProperty wrote:Bring back an old topic here,
I’ve been wondering about this myself lately, I can rephrase the questions to make myself more comfortable, but I have a lingering feeling that reminds me that although I may then be comfortable the interviewer would not be if I shared my interpretation.
I agree that my journey is mine and I am responsible for it, but doesn’t my membership in the church say something to the general public as well as the other members in the church? what I mean is, if I remain ‘Mormon’ that means people think I believe the BOM is scripture just like the Bible, JS was a Prophet, restored the Gospel, Mormonism is the only way back to HF presence through the ordinances of the Temple, etc. Also other members may think we mean the same thing when we say the church is true.
I don’t know that I want that kind of misunderstanding. I also don’t feel like it’s terrible that every once in awhile I enjoy going out and having a drink with friends, (1 or 2 max) yet if I stated this in a TR interview I’d be denied the recommend.
I understand how you feel RebelProperty. My disaffection is recent enough that I am not fully comfortable rephrasing the questions either. I am fully living my life in ways opposite asked by the TR interview (WoW and garment wearing included) and while I don’t feel that God is upset with me, I know I am not living how the church says I need to in order to enter its temples (I don’t really view them as God’s temples). I don’t want people to see me come out of a pub or not wearing my garments and think that I lied to get into the temple. I figure if they ask, I can always honestly answer that I don’t have a temple recommend. This decision is pretty recent and so I’m not sure how it is going to play out at church. My temple recommend just expired and I’m expecting to be asked in to renew it, but my plan is to simply decline and see how that goes over. It may get a little rocky because my calling is one where you are supposed to be “worthy” of a temple recommend (I’m a ward financial clerk), and we just got a new bishop who appears may be a hardliner, but I guess we’ll see.
All fantastic insight! I would just add that some of the posters that are questioning seem to be mostly concerned about how it looks, who will say what, what will “they” think? This is probably the most natural reaction when considering blazing an individual path, especially while staying in the “church”. At some point, the journey can truly become individual when the individual is willing to let go of these “what if’s”.
If it’s possible, try to visualize being all alone but in a crowd of strangers. As you look around, you realize that you don’t know anyone. As such, you don’t really care what everyone there thinks about you. They’re looking at you but you can’t control what they’re thinking about you. What if your hair is messed up? What if you have a stain on your shirt? What if your fly is down?
Who cares!!
God, or whatever that means to you, has given you life. Don’t live it for others. Someday, we all have to answer to ourselves. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating: God trusts you. Be honest with yourself, above all others.
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