Integrity

[Anonymous]

MisterC, I agree with your observations. I would say the effects come from perceived doctrine. I would also say (my individual opinion here) that this practice is culture at work. My differentiation is between perceived doctrine (cultural items understood to be doctrine) and true doctrine which by definition is based in truth. Even though you can’t readily “fix” it, I feel that by recognizing it you can keep your own views focused toward finding the good and the true.

MisterCurie wrote:

I guess my point is that just because it is Church doctrine, it doesn’t mean it is “true doctrine” and may very well be “false doctrine.” I suppose those elements of “[cultural] ‘doctrine'” are the things we ignore in the LDS cafeteria.

This is my point as well.

[Anonymous]

overit wrote:

I am curious about your comment concerning Utah transplants in your East Coast ward. What was your ward like before they moved in? Do you think they were able to influence ward leadership because they were from “Zion”? What changes came about from their influence? Are there other members from the East that can identify the changes/influence?

It wasn’t so much that Utah transplants moved into the ward, it was more that we moved into a ward of Utah transplants (mostly students going to East Coast schools for 4 years before moving back to Utah to put down roots). It probably didn’t help that we were considered part of the Utah transplant crowd. I am from Idaho and went to BYU and we had just gotten married and I was moving out East for school, although I plan to put down roots in the East, and DW was lumped into the diligent wifey following her husband to the East for school, although she was already in the East and had been raised in the East and it could more accurately be described that I was moving out to be with her. She would get very annoyed that introductions were inevitably accompanied with the question, “What are you doing out here?” and that most of the others answers were “My husband is going to dental/law/medical school.” But she was even more annoyed that if she answered by saying “My husband is going to medical school” they would cut her off, expecting that to be the whole of the answer, without letting her conclude “and I’m going to graduate school getting my PhD in Bioengineering.”

DWs first ward upon converting to Mormonism was very liberal with lots of hippies, card-carrying members of the communist party and feminists getting higher education while their husbands cared for their kids. The ward we moved into upon getting married was an inner city ward with lots of transient student transplants and some longer term Utah transplants from the suburbs to provide “leadership.” The transplants were the leadership. It was just annoying to sit through testimony meetings about how hard to was to be so far away from family and friends, but that they were happy for the opportunity to be in the “mission field”.

DWs real issues with Mormonism came from trying to tease apart culture and doctrine and realizing they were the same. She had always placated herself with things by saying that it must be a cultural thing and not a doctrinal thing, but when she dived into it, she found out it was “doctrinal”. She was coming from a Catholic upbringing as an educated feminist. For example, it can’t really be church doctrine that women shouldn’t get an education, it must just be a cultural thing that so many women stay home to raise their families, but when she dug down into it, while there are some statements that women should get an education, there are many more addresses from General Authorities in GC that women should stay home and raise their families as that is the ideal (there’s the whole Proc. on the Family that is regularly quoted as well). She had similar issues with practically teenagers getting married (19 year old girls getting married today and old maids if they have to go on a mission at 21! – not to mention JS’s 14 yo wives), needing to be from a “stock Mormon” family to serve in upper positions in the church (how many of Qo12 are converts?), etc.

[Anonymous]

MisterCurie wrote:

DWs first ward upon converting to Mormonism was very liberal with lots of hippies, card-carrying members of the communist party and feminists getting higher education while their husbands cared for their kids. The ward we moved into upon getting married was an inner city ward with lots of transient student transplants and some longer term Utah transplants from the suburbs to provide “leadership.” The transplants were the leadership. It was just annoying to sit through testimony meetings about how hard to was to be so far away from family and friends, but that they were happy for the opportunity to be in the “mission field”.

Hmm, reading this made me wonder if my church “history” is the reason for my waywardness (Lol!). I did my undergrad at the “U,” (Utah), then professional training at UC Berkeley, then residency at UCSF. Talk about different churches! Going from SLC to Berkeley really taught me how diverse Mormons can be! I remember when a letter from the 1st Pres (Benson) was read in Sacrament meeting about how the women shouldn’t work outside the home, the bishop said “this doesn’t apply to us.”

We students were shocked!

But I guess that’s a good indication that the culture IS the doctrine. I have to laugh when church apologists criticize those of us that say “I grew up having been taught Joseph was only married to Emma, etc.,” and they say “that was never taught….”

I guess a moving target is always harder to nail down about anything that could have been “wrong!”

[Anonymous]

hwkgrrrl, thanks for the link, I can’t wait to read it. I think we are close enough to Utah that a lot of members here act the same way as your Utah transplant. It is super fun to deal with!

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I remember when a letter from the 1st Pres (Benson) was read in Sacrament meeting about how the women shouldn’t work outside the home, the bishop said “this doesn’t apply to us.”

Lol, Rix! I think this is my mantra!

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She would get very annoyed that introductions were inevitably accompanied with the question, “What are you doing out here?” and that most of the others answers were “My husband is going to dental/law/medical school.” But she was even more annoyed that if she answered by saying “My husband is going to medical school” they would cut her off, expecting that to be the whole of the answer, without letting her conclude “and I’m going to graduate school getting my PhD in Bioengineering.”

MisterCurie, I can sooo relate to this! I can’t stand the “What does your husband do?” mentality.

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DWs first ward upon converting to Mormonism was very liberal with lots of hippies, card-carrying members of the communist party and feminists getting higher education while their husbands cared for their kids.

This blows my mind! I want to go to this ward!!!

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For example, it can’t really be church doctrine that women shouldn’t get an education, it must just be a cultural thing that so many women stay home to raise their families, but when she dug down into it, while there are some statements that women should get an education, there are many more addresses from General Authorities in GC that women should stay home and raise their families as that is the ideal

This is an interesting point. When I went back to school after being out of hs for a decade, I had several little children, we lived away from family, and I had some health issues, so towards the end of the first semester, I was ready to quit what I considered a failed experiment. I went to women’s conference that October and Pres. Monson gave a great talk about women’s education that I can honestly say has been a strength to me throughout my education (which is still in progress). I cannot count the number of times I have wanted to give up because it is incredibly difficult to raise a family and obtain an education, and I also cannot count the number of times I have been supported in this endeavor through prayer and priesthood blessings when I had nothing more to give. I know this is the path I am supposed to take, and the spiritual witnesses I have had regarding my education are very important to me. BUT I am also totally marginalized (and at times persecuted) in my ward/stake for seeking an education because it is not in elementary ed (which is still stereotypically acceptable), and we don’t NEED the $$, so it is assumed that I have no justification for seeking higher education, that I am harming my children by making them sacrifice, blah, blah. Ironically, critiques are always from women, men are surprisingly supportive of my choices-especially older men. Sorry, I digress into another gender analysis! So, I think this goes back to the culture/doctrine discussion because I think doctrinally, women are sent many messages that are antiquated and have no bearing on reality. Historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich wrote something about the church needing to recognize that being a stay-at-home mom was really a white, middle-class, American phenomenon that happened in the 1950s (and helped to spark the second wave feminist movement, I might add), but that economically this lifestyle has never really been a reality, especially for women historically despite notions of Victorian domesticity. (I probably butchered her point and will find the reference). But, I think this makes a lot of sense. I cannot think of any woman (I am racking my brain now : ) who has not worked in some form or another, either single or married, be it in home daycare, substitute teaching, retail, and rarely, professional work. So, the reality for most LDS women is that we will work at some point, thus the doctrine?? advising us to get an education, but when we do seek the education, we get the mixed message that we should be in the home and usually suffer a cultural backlash.

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