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Love you story and you comments on the other post. I wrote a long post but some how it didn’t post. Welcome and keep posting and I think that you will find us to be a pretty good group here. Turinturanbar (Where’s the name from?), Totally agree on thee/thou.
The reasons given in the handbook are flawed. It says we should use thee/thou out of respect. That’s a massive misunderstanding of the origin of the word.
In French ‘tu/tes’ is the intimate/personal/singular pronoun. ‘Vous/vos’ is the respectful/formal and plural pronoun.
Everyone in French say ‘tu/tes’ in prayers, not the formal ‘vous.’ As missionaries we had to use ‘vous’ to all adults (even when we became friends) but we could use ‘tu’ to speak to God, kids and animals (!!). In most languages they have this distinction and God is almost always addressed with the familiar pronoun.
In English we used to have this. ‘Thee/thy’ was informal/friendly and singular while ‘you/your’ was formal/respectful. In the north of England some older people will still use ‘thee’ with their closest friends.
But… these days most people’s English has evolved to the point that thee has been dropped and ‘you’ is both formal and informal.
As such the insistence that ‘thee’ should be used out of respect is a misunderstanding of the origin of the word.
I’ve long used ‘you’ in personal prayer. I’m starting to let it creep into prayers in meetings.
Turinturambar, I like your name and your picture. Big Tolkein fan.
I think my problem isn’t so much with using thee and thou quite so much as the rote-ness that happens a lot of the time. We are so proud of ourselves for not using vain repetition but we sure are taught to repeat a formula. It seems like we end up with a laundry list of things we always have to give thanks for and ask to be blessed. Although the words aren’t the same exactly each time I still feel like it can be a vain repetition all the same.
I like to have conversations as I pray but a lot more pause in the middle to ponder it. I think we teach “search, ponder, and pray” but I think the searching and pondering belong in the prayer…at least for me.
I love the term “meta-rameumtom”. I’m not sure I will ever be an every week attender again. I feel impressed to go once or twice a month but I also find there are other ways to worship that don’t involve testing my patience and pride quite as much hehe.
Mackay,
I like using thou. I don’t know why… I know it’s the informal version. I think I’ve just talked to God like that for so long I feel weird if I don’t. Like I’m changing my relationship with him. And it’s my relationship with the church that’s changed, not my relationship with God. I view my relationship with the church as so secondary to my relationship with God.
I think I also lament the loss of the formal/informal distinction in English. But I also lament the loss of the subjunctive in English. Linguistics can be fun. It does strike me as odd that the reason we are supposed to use thee and thou is because it’s more respectful when it’s the opposite. I think, for me, there is value in using language that makes my prayer language different from my everyday language. But it’s a personal thing. I think that people should pray however they feel comfortable talking to God. I like what you mentioned about your mission. If it wasn’t for prayers I would never have learned how to use “tu” in Spanish.
I think the bottom line is that there isn’t one way to pray. I can use thou, you can use you, we’re both communicating with God. And if you feel like you’re communicating fine then who is anyone else to tell you it’s wrong. On that note I guess I shouldn’t complain about TBM prayers that I see as repetitive since maybe they’re communicating just fine?
Meta-rameumtom indeed.
A good point about prayer. I’ve no problem with people using thee/thou in prayer if they want to (especially as that’s technically the original personal/informal pronoun). My concern was with Handbook 2 saying we should, for it to be somehow more ‘valid.’ I love reading peoples stories. Thanks for sharing yours. I admire it when people can have so much figured out, so early in life. Unfortunately I still had a fairly narrow view when I served my 2 years (million dollar experience I wouldn’t pay another penny for). I enjoyed your comments and thoughts on prayer. For the past few years I have tried to enjoy praying. It does nothing for me. Same with reading the scriptures. I try but it is pretty rare that I enjoy the fruits. This past year I have started meditating somewhat irregularly. I can definitely say that through meditation I feel a stronger tie to spiritual things. There are some things Christianity, and specifically our church, does well. But there is definitely, in my mind, some value and need for Eastern philosophies.
wuwei wrote:
Basically I was not what they thought a missionary should be. I saw myself more as a wandering Buddhist monk looking to do service while on my quest to enlightenment while imparting knowledge to those who desired it. My companions tended to see themselves fast-talking, block your door with my foot, door to door salesmen obsessed with numbers. Needless to say it made for challenges.
Just have to say that this mental image has staying power. It’s made me laugh more than once. Thanks!
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