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I like that framing, LH. Things effect people differently, by nature. The key question might be how much control we have over changing how things effect us – and that question has been debated for millennia.
Great thread and great podcast! I just listened to the podcast last night. I also have a hard time understanding how someone like Greg Prince or Richard Bushman can know all the warts of Mormonism intimately and not have a faith crisis. I really admire people like that, but I don’t understand how they can do it. I am not a scientist, but I have a pretty analytical mind and when so many data points don’t line up with what I previously believed or was taught, it’s hard for me not to experience a complete loss of faith. Apologetics don’t help me (too much mental gymnastics is required). I know I tend to be a black and white thinker, and maybe that’s my problem. It’s interesting to me that although Prince is still a staunch believer, his beliefs are not orthodox. For example, he all but declared on the podcast that he believes the Book of Mormon is not historical. Both he and Richard Bushman agree (at least from what I can tell) that the orthodox narrative of Church history has to change to be sustainable.
Old Timer wrote:I like that framing, LH. Things effect people differently, by nature.
The key question might be how much control we have over changing how things effect us – and that question has been debated for millennia.
I listened to a podcast this morning on the way into work (I tell you I am not kidding when I say I am a podcast junkie). It had someone on that said he realized late in life he had Asperger’s and someone else (who also claimed to have Asperger’s) described it in the following way
Quote:I suppose key features of Asperger’s are obsessive nature with obsessive interests and relentless nature in pursuing interests. Abhorrence of inconsistencies and an inability to ever just ignore them especially when those inconsistencies are part of injustice. Most people with Asperger’s can’t bear to see injustice or unfair treatment of people. People with Asperger’s are often highly intelligent and articulate but with a tendency to long-winded speech where the same thing gets rephrased more than once in an effort to better and fully express it. Lastly besides the seriousness with which they pursue their obsessions, people with Asperger’s often have an extremely whimsical sense of humor. They enjoy word play and have a finely tuned feeling for the absurd which they enjoy toying with. They can be exceptionally bold when pursuing their obsession or finding things they see as unjust and they will dive into things that others would hesitate to do.
I have studied the Autism spectrum just a bit and I am aware of the saying, “If you have meet someone on the Autism spectrum, you have meet ONE person on the Autism spectrum” (i.e. there are wide variances in traits and intensities of these traits). I generally try to refrain from putting a label on everyone.But just taking this above description of traits, I can see where such a person would not have a strong shelf to put issues on. I would assume that such a person is more likely than the average person to end up feeling uncomfortable in the church as they see HUGE issues that others want to gloss over.
What do you all think about his comments about JS vision – with a small and capital “v”? In the segment about masonry/temple he talked about his rare talent, the
Quote:… ability to translate that vision into a form that was accessible to his believers.
Ever since RSR, that’s something I hear a lot in discussions of JS.Prince:
Quote:Having the vision doesn’t get you very far if you can’t get your believers on board.
Towards the end of the interview he seems to be saying that without anewvision of Mormonism, the “data followers” will not get on board.
Quote:There’s enough data out there that orthodoxy is in trouble.
But then there’s the problem of everyone else, the people for whom the essays were hidden on lds.org.And then there’s Elder Ballard telling the seminary teachers to know and teach the essays. But I don’t think there’s time for a whole generation to turn over. I think there are harder, more stark choices to be made right now. I wonder what a visionary like Joseph Smith would do right at this moment in our history.
Ann asked Quote:I wonder what a visionary like Joseph Smith would do right at this moment in our history.
IMO – He’d pick a new tangent and leave the rest behind.
These guys run around getting interviewed and writing books. I wonder if they would feel the same if they were Joe Nobody. Their identity now seems to be caught up in this non crisis faith crisis. Personally I am not sure they are doing any service to anyone. Maybe 5% of people learning the reality of the church can ignore the problems The rest of us have to face the facts and make hard decisions. Their approach is just not an option and gives ammo to those claiming you can have doubts and believe.
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Their approach works for a whole lot of people – far more than would be represented at a site like this, since most people here are here because their approach doesn’t work exactly for us, even it their approach helps many people here as evidence that more people are walking individual paths than is apparent locally on Sunday. They do an important work, even if it is different than our work.
Old Timer wrote:Their approach works for a whole lot of people – far more than would be represented at a site like this, since most people here are here because their approach doesn’t work exactly for us, even it their approach helps many people here as evidence that more people are walking individual paths than is apparent locally on Sunday.
They do an important work, even if it is different than our work.
I am not sure the average member even knows who these people are and the positions they take.
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Cadence wrote:Old Timer wrote:Their approach works for a whole lot of people – far more than would be represented at a site like this, since most people here are here because their approach doesn’t work exactly for us, even it their approach helps many people here as evidence that more people are walking individual paths than is apparent locally on Sunday.
They do an important work, even if it is different than our work.
I am not sure the average member even knows who these people are and the positions they take.
I’m not sure the average member does either, but I don’t think we’re talking about the average member.
Cadence wrote:I wonder if they would feel the same if they were Joe Nobody.
I bet more often than not…they would feel exactly the same…just people wouldn’t be emailing them and asking for interviews. They would just be feeling the same way quietly going about their business. And I bet there are a lotta lotta Joe Nobody’s out there that do that and never get interviewed and don’t care that much about it. Way more Joe Nobody’s that believe the same as these guys than we think. To me, the reason books sell and podcasts get listened to is because these guys are voicing what many others feel. And it is likely something that has been quietly believed by people for generations and generations. It’s not new. I would put a bet down on that.Cadence you are right. The average member doesn’t know them. They aren’t GA’s or Big Wigs in our culture. But that doesn’t matter. Lots of people in life do important things and no body knows them. Yet they make significant contributions to lives everyday. I believe Greg Prince and others do that. Sure it maybe a small number. And maybe not everyone can make the same leap they can. But I have stood in rooms and watched hurting disaffected members find solace, hope, relief, and value in the presence of the few unknown men and women who are writing the books, giving the lectures, creating or attending the symposiums and firesides. Even people leaving are finding a bit of calm as they walk out the door. Not everyone, but even one life is worth the effort. If one person can be kinder to a person who believes opposite of them, then the work was a success. I for one deeply appreciate their efforts.
mom3 wrote:But I have stood in rooms and watched hurting disaffected members find solace, hope, relief, and value in the presence of the few unknown men and women who are writing the books, giving the lectures, creating or attending the symposiums and firesides.
Even people leaving are finding a bit of calm as they walk out the door.Not everyone, but even one life is worth the effort. Prince’s really old interview with John Dehlin was one of the first I listened to. It was medicine I needed; he sounded like the most “real” stake president ever. I realized then that my life would go on even if I left.
I don’t think this is anything like a gimmick for him. He’s had a lifelong interest in this stuff and kept it going alongside his career and family life.
Time will tell, but the interesting question for me isn’t how like Prince, Bushman, Givenses I am. ‘Cause I know the answer is not much. I follow them for signs that anyone
else(read: higher-ups) is listening. He’s saying that we have a decent chance of pivoting into “future Mormonism,” and we’re all holding our breath to see what happens. (I look for every little thing. Elder Rasband has an article in this month’s Ensign where he talks about gays. Gay people, gay friends, gay members, etc., I don’t remember the exact usage. But it’s great to just see someone talking comfortably about it. Instead of the super-awkward, “experiencing same-sex attraction.” You’ve got to speak a language intelligible to my kids who have many gay friends they love with all their hearts.)
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