Intolerance…Who’s to blame

[Anonymous]

I sent some excerpts from a couple of blog post that Old-Timer linked to in the thread “Could this WofW story be real?” to a couple of my TBM brothers who have lately been, I think, trying to communicate more with me and figure me out, or figure out “what my problem” is anyway. The excerpts were about, in my mind, tolerance of others, especially members, in regards to some of our “goofy” church policies and rules like WofW and tattoos and such, and helping those folks feel comfortable in attending church. (is that an accurate summary Ray?) Anyway, here is a part of his response. Remember, he is as TBM as I’ve ever met. I think he does make some good points in his response. My point for this thread is, does his last sentence (in bold) have merit. Who is to blame for the intolerance. Are church members (in general) more intolerant of the world, or is the world (in general) more intolerant of the church? And if he is correct, WHY does the world hate “us” so badly. Has our intolerance bred more intolerance, or vice-versa? I have an opinion.

I guess I don’t see it so much here in Oregon, but from my experience, the closer one gets to SLC, the more hate for the church one encounters? I did encounter a lot of “hate” at the Vegas Bowl this year. But hey, when you’re getting your butt kicked it’s easy to “hate” the other team. I about came to blows with another fellow OSU fan that sat behind my two brothers and Dad (wearing their BYU paraphernalia), and yelled nothing but profanity for 50 minutes, most of it directed personally to them. I believe their remarks were mostly centered around JS being a pedophile, but they didn’t use those polite terms.

Quote:

This is pretty cool, and I agree somewhat; but you know that I am not the same sympathizer for non-members that you are. Nor am I as critical of the typical Mormon member as you are… Now, we agree that this should never, never happen. Unfortunately it does. We are disgusted with the members who act this way. That being said, for every one member like this, there are thousands of anti-Mormons who are intolerant towards us to a greater degree. I mean, honestly, do you think there are people around you who would come to church with you just to worship? I don’t. Everyone knows or thinks he knows about Mormonism…They either are us (members) or they despise us. They may not tell you to your face that they despise your beliefs, but they do. This is why they don’t walk through the doors, not because members won’t show tolerance or love. Most don’t want a thing to do with us on Sundays. They hate us. Hey, I would love it too. I would love to see the tattoo-laden, pot-smoking, multi-pierced person on the pews come Sunday morning. Do you really think he or she isn’t there because they don’t want to be pressured to be baptized? I don’t… I honestly believe that this “mighty change of heart” that is spoken about is already happening. I honestly believe that most members are to that point. I really do. I don’t believe that most of the world is to the point that they would come worship just to worship with the Mormons though. They are intolerant of us. They have been since 1830. Now you were at the BYU/Oregon State game. Are those people around us intolerant of Mormons, or are Mormons intolerant of them? You cannot honestly say that you did not feel the hate, can you? Did you feel that same sense of intolerance at any other OSU game that you attended? I doubt it. The hate and intolerance was so palpable that it weighed on any Mormon there. Are things so different on the street where you live? They aren’t here. There are anti-Mormon letters to the editor in every paper from Las Vegas to Idaho Falls, including Afton, Wyoming… Again, there are very few in the middle ground. If there was only one church building to worship in for a thousand mile radius and it was Mormon, only Mormons would show up, for the most part. Others would stay away because it was a Mormon church. The church is already open to everyone. In that sense, it is already nondenominational. People are welcome to come. You and I have already invited our friends to come. But did they? Mine didn’t … I agree that the situation described in this article would be very very cool. I don’t think it isn’t happening because of the membership of the church. I think it isn’t happening because of the intolerance of the world. I really do. – Kev

[Anonymous]

Okay, I think the answer is much simpler than you might want. “Intolerance,” or hatred, is from a lack of understanding and empathy. It is our natural response to fight what we don’t understand. And I think that applies often to both Mormons and non-Mormons.

I mean, let’s look at Joseph. He went around claiming he had the restored gospel of Jesus Christ…the one and only. He had a new “scripture” that was presented to others to be the history of the people living on this continent for a thousand years. And he was practicing (covert) polygamy — not exactly a friendly lifestyle to those around him. Oh, and he claimed he was a prophet, going to be crowned King, going to be president of the USA, and you had to join his new church or you wouldn’t make it to the best part of heaven.

I think most would naturally be “intolerant” of that.

Mormons today have that history as part of what many people know. And with quite a few prominent politicians as members…even the Senate majority leader, the power play “we” used to pass Prop 8 in California, there is the perceived threat that Mormons may have an influence on how people live in this country. Probably more than “hatred,” it’s a lack of understanding.

I certainly see how “we” are seen as weird!

😆

[Anonymous]

Where does Kevin live? I’ll wait to comment further until I know.

[Anonymous]

Kevin grew up in Weston ID – about 20 miles north of Logan Ut, attended school at Ricks and Utah State. He lived in Nephi UT for 10 years, and now lives in Star Valley WY for the last five years.

[Anonymous]

I’ve never really felt much intolerance against the church with the exception of a time I was in a Lutheran church in Tacoma, Washington, and the speaker referred to the church as “a satanically inspired, polytheistic, pornographic, pagan cult.” When about 400 people stood up and cheered I decided against challenging his assertions. At the same time I was following a couple of threads on MormonMatters today and the level of hostility from a couple of conservative commenters was a little hard to take. It made me wonder a bit once again how or if I fit in in a church with people that believe and act like that. But the point is that that’s not what my ward’s like and that’s not like what the majority, by far, of members I’ve known are like. I did feel a little funny in high priests group last Sunday when the teacher talked about trying to be tolerant of and show love to people that don’t wear white shirts and have beards. Luckily he didn’t mention being old, bald, and overweight or he would hit all 5 in my case.

[Anonymous]

Rix wrote:

I think most would naturally be “intolerant” of that.

Yeah, even Mormons (ironically enough). I highly doubt most Mormons would leave Mormonism if some teenager came around telling us he’d seen God and Jesus and that he had some ancient artifact from which he could bring forth new scripture. No, I’m confident most would reject his claims and continue to claim the LDS church and the one and only true one.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I think intolerance generally is subject most powerfully to three things:

1) Individual personality, including genetics – I know some members of the same families who are at about every point on the tolerance scale, so it’s not just upbringing.

2) Upbringing – Visiting the sins of the fathers upon the heads of the children to three or four generations is a practical statement, imo, of how long upbringing generally can and does affect children.

3) Cultural domination and/or isolation – When both are combined, it is very easy to slip into an us vs. them mentality – ESPECIALLY when there actually is a real history of persecution and reviling.

Mormons really are “hated and/or condemned” broadly in some places. Some of it is brought on by our own beliefs and actions; some of it is fueled purely by bigotry. I’m saddened by that, but I’m more saddened when Mormons hate and/or condemn others – and I’ve seen that, as well.

Finally, defensiveness almost never helps. A good sense of humor has worked best for me.

[Anonymous]

Well said Ray..

Mormons in many areas are truly HATED. I’ve heard and seen this in quite a few places. It saddens me, and I’m not sure who is to blame. Seems to me like the only ones to blame are ourselves (if you chose to place yourself in the Mormon category). I would much rather cast out the beam in my own eye before looking at the mote in any one elses eye. (much much easier said than done) I see the hatred from others many times as ignorance, intolerance from not having the patience to learn… maybe intolerance on our level from not having the patience to really teach? It goes around in circles…. and IMO, to break that cycle you can only look upon yourself.

[Anonymous]

When we lived in Ohio, we had a time when the local churches had big sermons on the evils of Mormonism, and the youth in their congregation were specifically told to avoid any Mormon friends at school because they try to “brainwash you and covert you”. 🙄 It hurt my kids’ feelings, but we just told them you can’t do much about others’ free agency. Just act like yourself and your real friends will know you for who you are. I think it is one thing between adults, but it is sad when they bring the impressionable minds of the youth into it.

Then fast forward to where we live now and just last week, my teenage daughter said her boyfriend broke up with her and told her it was because she’s mormon. She told me she felt like her mormon friends and leaders sometimes warned her not to date non-mormon boys, and she thought that was wrong. Then her non-mormon boyfriend breaks up with her because she’s mormon…she shook her head and said, “I just can’t win! Why does mormon have anything to do with it anyway??”

Its a good lesson in life for her. It matters to some people, doesn’t to others. We’ll hang out with the latter group.

I also told her the same thing Ray said:

Old-Timer wrote:

defensiveness almost never helps. A good sense of humor has worked best for me.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

I guess I don’t see it so much here in Oregon, but from my experience, the closer one gets to SLC, the more hate for the church one encounters?

As someone who currently lives in the Salt Lake Valley I can confirm that there is definitely large amounts of intolerance on both sides. If you take a look on the comment boards of websites like ksl.com (Utah’s leading news channel) you will find that no matter the story, the comments all turn into a Mormon bashing session. I have to be honest, I almost don’t blame the non-LDS for the ill feelings they have towards members. I would be very bothered living in Utah if I were not LDS. Living here you are completely surrounded by Mormon culture. You even see things like billboards advertising things like LDSagents.com (So you can make sure that your Real Estate agent was a Mormon!) I don’t see billboards for nonLDSagents.com! Who’s being intolerant here!

Also, living outside of Utah you are much more likely to grow up with non-member friends. I think that is SO important… it promotes an open attitude and more tolerance towards others. My husband who was born and raised in Orem Utah NEVER had a single friend who was not LDS. He was pretty much discouraged from “consorting” with non-members, especially when there were so many LDS friends to choose from. (Salt Lake county is actually much more diverse than the rest of Utah. I have always been grateful I at least live here. My kids have many non-member friends)

So in response… we are all to blame. I would say however that I don’t think that we are as intolerant as we are ignorant. Ignorant to the fact that there is truth and goodness outside of our faith.

[Anonymous]

I’m a little alarmed by the stereotypes in the note – the person with tatoos and piercings? I am friends with many many non-LDS people, and while they aren’t interested in joining the church, and some do have tatoos & piercings, they are also not hateful or intolerant toward the church. Those that are hateful or intolerance typically have a dog in the fight, which BTW, most people do not when it comes to Mormonism! The haters are generally:

– Competing religions. The hate-filled rants of Evangelicals are directly proportionate to their perception of our ability to convert their flock. Yet I know many Evangelicals who don’t hate on us at all.

– People who feel they’ve been personally wronged by our religion or its adherents

– People whose rights are occasionally encroached or who feel otherwise disenfranchized and defensive by living in a Mormon majority community.

Intolerance and hatred are defense mechanisms. Bigotry has always been about a fear that someone is going to lose something to someone else, wanting to hold on to whatever a person considers in their own interests. If you free the black slaves, they might become landowners, and I might have to pay for labor. That’s the real root of bigotry. If you do affirmative action, I might have less opportunity. If women have equality, I won’t be able to have higher status. It’s a scarcity mentality.

I was the only Mormon in my PA high school graduating class, and I can tell you, nobody knew anything about Mormons. Imagining we are reviled for our beliefs is a great way to reinforce our solidarity to the community, our tribalism. But I can tell you, we simply aren’t that important to the vast majority of people in the world. We aren’t even on the radar.

What ever happened to loving them that hate you, doing good to them that despitefully use you and so forth? Tolerance begins with each of us individually.

[Anonymous]

Part of my transforming world-view is an understanding and acceptance that there is a personality type out there that will always be intolerant. So, it really doesn’t matter whether there are mormons or non-mormons; there will always be an intolerant faction.

[Anonymous]

Swim, I think you make a good point, it is likely it will always exist. Does that mean you have to stand up to intolerance of others? Does that perpetuate intolerance to do so? (Just some thoughts I wanted to pursue on the subject..not trying to be a pest to you or anything ).

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Intolerance…Who’s to blame

The short answer to this is…

“You are! I’m not. Never.”

At least that’s how I see the problem…

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Does that mean you have to stand up to intolerance of others? Does that perpetuate intolerance to do so?

Good point, heber.

I think there is an element of reinforcement when you stand up to intolerance. I think that it’s personal, that you have to define for yourself what is acceptable or not and what actions are to be taken. Does that reinforce the intolerance? Probably, but knowing what’s right, feeling what’s right does compel the actor to do what’s right.

Not in the sense of hoping that the intolerant change but rather that the ethical position is unchanging.

[Author]

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