- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Roy, Thanks for the Sunstone link. Very helpful. The statement in the article
“…our bearing of testimonies is as much a structured ritual as the high Catholic mass with
all its pomp and circumstance. It is also a ritual like that of Andeans who ceremonily combine pieces of sugar, stone, and llama wool in interesting ways and then burn them as an
offering…”
I know about the Andeans and the practice of offerings to nature and I have attended several Catholic masses. In this context the ritual comes before the substance (if any permitted).
LDS meetings themselves tend to be ritualistic, I mean how do you fill a 3 hour block, youth firesides, seminary, activity night, and on and on and not get so redundant that you feel brain dead. Especially when it is socially unacceptable to talk about anything but conference talks, scriptures and JS.
The phraseology used by church members to me is a learned behavior. Say you are a convert and you attend your first few F/T meetings. You have a strong desire to express your faith and so you naturally watch others give their testimonies and you start picking up the phrases. The youth do it also. Even though you occasionally hear Bishops or an occasional conference talk about what is a testimony, the pattern continues.
I have heard adults give several “I know the church is true and JS was a prophet…” and to me it is just noise since you hear it over and over. Soon after they might actually begin to share their actual testimony of some aspect of the gospel. I have also heard kids give very inspiring testimonies that they love their parents, appreciate learning how to pray, love their primary teacher and so on. Those are really great too. Of course I have cringed when parents whisper into their kids’ ears the words.
I’ll throw out another practice that has become pretty ritualistic (at least in my ward) and that is giving talks. Usually the template is “I have been asked to give a talk on…” And then in random order, quotes from JS, BOM and General Conference talks. Many times the speaker will rarely mention the bible. I mean how many times have you hear about Paul’s missionary experiences. If the topic is missionary work, then much of the time you will hear examples from the BOM (Ammon being a favorite example). If a speaker deviates from the template and talks about a recent book they read or quotes a famous non-LDS poet it usually is not the norm. Can you imagine if someone quoted from Bushman or from In Sacred Lonliness? I think this is also a learned behavior also. Someone is asked to give a talk in a few weeks. They are worried about what to say. They listen to others give talks and model the behavior. I’ll start with quoting something out of the Ensign, then see what I can pull from conference, maybe then see what one of the prophets have said. There is my talk! To play it even safer I will read it.
I’m probably sounding a bit cynical but these things are bugging me so much more than before. Recently a member gave a talk about his experience in Vietnam and being a POW and how hope and faith kept him alive, how other fellow POW’s showed simple Christ-like acts to each other, they prayed their hearts out, were not miraculously saved but developed faith and strength in so many ways. It was so non-standard that I almost stood up and applauded!
Roy, as usual, you make gripping, inspiring comments over and over again. I’ve been around the block on “The Church is Perfect but the People Aren’t” platitude. For me, that’s basically a licence for leaders to do just about anything they want without accountability. It’s also another one of these “white-knuckle your way to heaven” motivational phrases meant to put the full onus on the individual to stay active, positive, and sacrificing even when the Church (defined as its people acting in official capacity, in my view) make mistakes or is outright incompetent or uncaring.
I think a better phrase is that “The gospel is perfect but the Church isn’t”. Another truism for myself is “The Church isn’t perfect but the people can be utterly inspiring at times”. I have personal experiences that back this up regularly.
I think it was both risky and courageous for you to have that discussion with an official Church leader like that and come away without apparently not being labelled apostate. When traditional believers have to lean on “well, it seems pretty simple to me” — void of reasons — it means you’ve made some good points they can’t immediately refute. Not that we’re out to the win an debate, but to make others think about these platitudes, deeply, and realize not everyone swallows them whole is a positive thing, in my view.
I love your analogy of clearing the rubble to reveal the bedrock, although often, there is a need to put the rubble back together again. It looks different when you’re done, for sure.
And last of all, the idea of reframing his outrageous comments about perfection as simply meaning “I really like the Church” is something I’ll probably quote….
I have a quotation I read on a different site about how Spencer W. Kimball was quoted as saying that the priesthood ban was a “possible mistake”. Do perfect organizations make possible mistakes? I think not. Imperfect organizations led by imperfect people do….
Roy wrote:
… and a Sunstone article titled “Belief, Metaphor, and Rhetoric : the Mormon Practice of Testimony Bearing” that can be found here…https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/081-20-27.pdf
Good article. Thanks for the link, Roy.
ElCid wrote:I’ll throw out another practice that has become pretty ritualistic (at least in my ward) and that is giving talks. Usually the template is “I have been asked to give a talk on…” And then in random order, quotes from JS, BOM and General Conference talks.
In my stake, every talk is supposed to be based on an assigned GC talk, so more often than not, it ends up being a talk about a talk. Or maybe a talk about a talk about a talk. I can’t tell sometimes. I assumed it was this way across the church, but maybe not. I typically give some brief lip service to the assigned talk, and then launch into some aspect that I feel passionate about, liberally quoting whatever I have been reading recently. (Let’s see … when was the last time I was asked to give a talk?)
There’s something that’s been bugging me, too, for no apparent reason, and I wanted to ask if this is another local thing … or is it a church-wide practice to have ‘spiritual thoughts’ at EVERY FREAKING MEETING? I mean, it’s church, right? Isn’t it already spiritual enough?
SilentDawning wrote:Roy, as usual, you make gripping, inspiring comments over and over again.
I know that we stayers are supposed to be developing a thick skin about needing validation from others, but this is harder for some than for others. We as humans are natural story tellers. We develop and refine our ideas as we bounce them off of one another. In short, thanks for validating me SD – it makes my day!
ElCid wrote:I’ll throw out another practice that has become pretty ritualistic (at least in my ward) and that is giving talks. Usually the template is “I have been asked to give a talk on…” And then in random order, quotes from JS, BOM and General Conference talks. Many times the speaker will rarely mention the bible. I mean how many times have you hear about Paul’s missionary experiences. If the topic is missionary work, then much of the time you will hear examples from the BOM (Ammon being a favorite example). If a speaker deviates from the template and talks about a recent book they read or quotes a famous non-LDS poet it usually is not the norm. Can you imagine if someone quoted from Bushman or from In Sacred Lonliness? I think this is also a learned behavior also. Someone is asked to give a talk in a few weeks. They are worried about what to say. They listen to others give talks and model the behavior. I’ll start with quoting something out of the Ensign, then see what I can pull from conference, maybe then see what one of the prophets have said. There is my talk! To play it even safer I will read it.
Once my teenage son just before going on his mission got up and said he knew God lived and answered prayer and he “believed” that BOM was the word of God and he “believed” that JS had seen a vision but he was still searching for more knowledge. After the meeting a member politely scolded him and said “it is ok to say “I know”, you need to say I know”. I told this member “no, it is ok to say I believe”. You could almost see the look in her face of what an awful parent I was for not teaching my kids how to bear testimony properly.
doug wrote:In my stake, every talk is supposed to be based on an assigned GC talk, so more often than not, it ends up being a talk about a talk. Or maybe a talk about a talk about a talk. I can’t tell sometimes. I assumed it was this way across the church, but maybe not. I typically give some brief lip service to the assigned talk, and then launch into some aspect that I feel passionate about, liberally quoting whatever I have been reading recently. (Let’s see … when was the last time I was asked to give a talk?)
I gave a talk just last month. It was Father’s Day and my assigned topic was “testimony.” Well actually, when I accepted the assignment to talk it was on testimony – a week later when I received the written notice the topic had morphed to “A Father’s Testimony that the Restoration is True.”
You can read the talk I gave here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2542 I worked hard to include accepted sources and to give the talk in the traditional format while challenging boundaries just a little. My wife said that my talk was positively referenced in the RS meeting several times.
Yet after I sat down the next speaker (who happened to be stake HC) opened his talk by bearing his testimony and then moving on to his totally unrelated talk. Almost as though he were adding what he thought was lacking from my talk.
When I was set apart for my recent calling, I was blessed that I may be able to bare my testimony. Perhaps I am being paranoid, but perhaps to them a testimony that doesn’t include the words “I know” is not a mature or true testimony.
As I infer in my talk, I see myself as a balancer for the ward. If everyone else is wearing a white shirt, then this can be isolating and alienating for those that don’t. If people get too far down the “earn your way to heaven” track, I try to add in the atonement back into the discussion (if only as an asterisk). I participate and serve and do not present myself as incendiary. In the “body of the church” perhaps I am the little toe, or the earlobe. Whatever part I play, I am confident that I am fulfilling my role just as God would have me.
Roy, Thanks for the link of your talk. To me this is what a talk should be. You approached the subject from a personal standpoint, brought in a few scriptures & quote to support your talk and it was your talk not a verbal sedative. As Doug posted earlier so many talks are talks about talks or what a Prophet has said sometime. As I mentioned before, I think like testimonies, talks in church are a learned behavior. Is there somewhere where the membership of the church needs to follow certain guidelines in talks? If so can someone enlighten me? Has this just become a practice over time? Where are the LeGrand Richards and Mathew Cowleys? I am dating myself, I never really personally listened to Mathew Cowley except on a recording but I did hear LeGrand Richards just before he died. These GA’s gave great talks and were unique. Another example is Neal A. Maxwell.
It seems that now they almost all the GA’s are the same, same approach and almost same style. Maybe this is where it comes from? I have been reading a three part series on the commonconsent web site called “everything that is wrong with LDS gospel teaching. Very informative. I will post the links to all three parts for those interested. In the articles many talk about how bland it almost has become.
Quote:I remember when I was the ward mission leader and the missionaries brought an investigator to F/T meeting. The lady walked out of the middle of the meeting and after we met with her she said it sounded like all of you are just trying to re-assure yourselves over and over again. Everyone is saying the same thing.
I had a very similar experience as a missionary – investigators who said the same thing or members who just couldn’t sit through these meetings one more time. They are truly irritating. Thank heaven for 3G!
I just went to my 2nd Mormon Stories book club meeting, and although I enjoy being amongst Mormons who can openly talk about what they truly think and believe, I still feel like an outsider because I am still a believer in God and plan on staying a member of the LDS church and actively attending church on Sundays, and I feel like its turned out to be a ex-mormons and people who wish they could be ex-mormon meeting. I then go to church and feel like outsider there too, because I don’t process things even remotely the same as I perceive others. I have some friends I’ve made there but not really on the intellectual side, they just aren’t that into thinking too deeply about all this stuff. I still find comfort in going to church (occasionally) and participating in the rituals but I also am in a “different” place intellectually then I’ve ever been before and sometimes I need feel like I can relate to others. Sorry if I’m making this all about me when this is your introduction thread. I guess I just wanted to let you know that I personally am encouraged to read your experience and relate it to mine. Maybe we should try to carve out a niche in the Mormon Stories community for those that are still wanting to “Stay LDS”.
sundance wrote:Maybe we should try to carve out a niche in the Mormon Stories community for those that are still wanting to “Stay LDS”.
I cross over between those two communities. Promoting the idea that MS communities need to be inclusive of those who want to stay is a big concern of mine, and I push for this every chance I get. It is very important. I know it doesn’t always turn out that way though. We are trying to come up with ways of doing that part of the community building better.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.