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This comes from my son who is on his mission in Oklahoma but interestingly I have had the same perspective or question, just not as a challenge to my faith. He is teaching an elderly couple and the lady was Jehovah Witness for many years. She sees the fall description as God’s way of setting up man for failure. I myself have wondered why Adam had to be disobedient and commit the original sin to be mortal. Or, was he being obedient? There is a gap in my understanding about this. Was it ONLY about agency?
I don’t know much at all about JW’s but I did mention to my son (comm on P-day) that sometimes you have to adjust your perspective to somebody else’s to get through. One might even need to agree or, say it does look that way.
Thoughts?
There is a thread somewhere that makes some very good points on the Fall, somebody may find it and link to it. That is a logical perspective, that Adam was set up to fail. You could also say that he was set up to learn, there was no way to continue from the garden with any progression without first experiencing a serious lesson. I have heard it explained that HF was acting as God when He said “multiply and replenish the earth” …but was simply acting as the local civic authority in the garden when he said “do not partake of the fruit of knowledge.”
There could also be a mis-interpretation or misunderstanding of the message about the tree — the point being “know that there are consequences to partaking of this fruit — it will change your standing in the garden.” Yes it was necessary, but it did effect a big change for Adam and Eve. I think it was important that they take on that change willingly.
Orson wrote:There is a thread somewhere that makes some very good points on the Fall, somebody may find it and link to it.
That is a logical perspective, that Adam was set up to fail. You could also say that he was set up to learn,…
I would like my son and all missionaries to be able to respond this way without hesitation. Maybe many can, I don’t know if they have answers in depth.
Kipper wrote:sometimes you have to adjust your perspective to somebody else’s to get through
I really like this advice, Kipper.
First of all, the stories of the Garden of Eden are very symbolic, and told to people thousands of years ago and handed down orally for centuries before ever written down, and then, as you know with scripture, translated into different languages.
The idea that the story we have is precise in detail or in word by word accuracy is to be considered…and therefore, adapting it to the person you are talking to is a good way to get across the ideas and teachings without getting bogged down in words or exact interpretations.
Look for the overlap and common beliefs in the person you are talking to, and start there with the story of the fall. Don’t be so sure we have all the details correct and must make the other person accept them.
A visit over to one website shows JW teachings as:
Quote:Hence Adam and Eve story is actually a history given in symbolism. It tells how mankind FELL from God’s kingdom of total peace and happiness to a life of body-consciousness with its attendant vices….
It is not surprising that Jesus Christ does not allude to Adam and Eve account (which has, of course, many flaws) to explain the origin of sin and death. “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” (James 1:14, 15)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/252029/1/Adam-and-Evee28094A-New-Perspective ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/252029/1/Adam-and-Evee28094A-New-Perspective Once we agree the account is symbolic, I think you can find many common teachings and themes in the symbolism and interpretations we have of them. You can also pick out differences if you want to, but that wouldn’t seem as productive.
I find we share more things in common with other religions than we do differences.
I personally like the idea that we must first know the bitter, in order to appreciate sweet. We must pass through hard times in order to grow and learn. The Lord doesn’t set me up to fail or cause my father to have cancer. He simply sets up a system and a plan, and then allows things to happen and us to choose in that environment, so we might learn wisdom. And nature takes it’s course and things happen, and sometimes life is painful, and sometimes sprinkled with moments of joy. I think the symbolic lesson of Adam and Eve can teach me that lesson.
Of course, the missionaries should ask the investigators what they learn from the symbolic story. Sometimes missionaries can learn a lot by asking questions, instead of feeling like they must provide all the answers. Sometimes that is a good teaching method, and brings the spirit to the discussion.
“The Fall” is described as humanity’s departure from the presence of God, and Mormon theology teaches that it occurred by “following” Lucifer to this world. We also teach that The Fall occurred so we could gain knowledge, progress and return to God – and, eventually, become like Him. Sounds like the core script for the play I see when I attend the temple and do an endowment session – and I see the Garden of Eden narrative as a symbolic representation of our move from pre-mortal beings to mortals. Thus, I don’t see “failure” in the story – but I easily can work within that language to agree with someone who phrases it that way. In the end, I think both views say the same thing about mortals needing to “fail” in order to succeed – even though our views about the other aspects of my first paragraph are radically different than what the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach.
Heber13 wrote:Kipper wrote:sometimes you have to adjust your perspective to somebody else’s to get through
I really like this advice, Kipper.
First of all, the stories of the Garden of Eden are very symbolic, and told to people thousands of years ago and handed down orally for centuries before ever written down, and then, as you know with scripture, translated into different languages.
The idea that the story we have is precise in detail or in word by word accuracy is to be considered…and therefore, adapting it to the person you are talking to is a good way to get across the ideas and teachings without getting bogged down in words or exact interpretations.
Look for the overlap and common beliefs in the person you are talking to, and start there with the story of the fall. Don’t be so sure we have all the details correct and must make the other person accept them.
A visit over to one website shows JW teachings as:
Quote:Hence Adam and Eve story is actually a history given in symbolism. It tells how mankind FELL from God’s kingdom of total peace and happiness to a life of body-consciousness with its attendant vices….
It is not surprising that Jesus Christ does not allude to Adam and Eve account (which has, of course, many flaws) to explain the origin of sin and death. “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” (James 1:14, 15)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/252029/1/Adam-and-Evee28094A-New-Perspective ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/252029/1/Adam-and-Evee28094A-New-Perspective Once we agree the account is symbolic, I think you can find many common teachings and themes in the symbolism and interpretations we have of them. You can also pick out differences if you want to, but that wouldn’t seem as productive.
I find we share more things in common with other religions than we do differences.
I personally like the idea that we must first know the bitter, in order to appreciate sweet. We must pass through hard times in order to grow and learn. The Lord doesn’t set me up to fail or cause my father to have cancer. He simply sets up a system and a plan, and then allows things to happen and us to choose in that environment, so we might learn wisdom. And nature takes it’s course and things happen, and sometimes life is painful, and sometimes sprinkled with moments of joy. I think the symbolic lesson of Adam and Eve can teach me that lesson.
Of course, the missionaries should ask the investigators what they learn from the symbolic story. Sometimes missionaries can learn a lot by asking questions, instead of feeling like they must provide all the answers. Sometimes that is a good teaching method, and brings the spirit to the discussion.
H13, you can sure say a lot in a short amount of time. This makes a lot of sense to me, some is just what I have thought. Some of it is new sensible thought. But sometimes I struggle with what I feel vs. what is taught. What I mean is, we as Latter Day Saints have a long line of prophets right? We have been receiving revelation for some time so somewhere somebody is going to tell me that someone has revealed a precise meaning to this question. Therefore my logic and thoughts may be DQ’d. Am I wrapping my own twine around the axle? I guess that’s why I keep so much to myself.
Old-Timer wrote:“The Fall” is described as humanity’s departure from the presence of God, and Mormon theology teaches that it occurred by “following” Lucifer to this world. We also teach that The Fall occurred so we could gain knowledge, progress and return to God – and, eventually, become like Him.
So the fall could be thought of as something that didn’t have to happen because man was already in the presence of God(?), and something that shouldn’t happen because it would cause man to be unclean and not able to bear God’s presence, but had to happen in order to gain knowledge and progress. However knowledge and progress alone isn’t salvation because uncleanliness is unavoidable even by living a most righteous clean life. Therefore we need a Savior. (These are my own deductions).
Is Lucifer the ultimate “necessary evil”? Was his deed a sacrifice?
Old-Timer wrote:Sounds like the core script for the play I see when I attend the temple and do an endowment session – and I see the Garden of Eden narrative as a symbolic representation of our move from pre-mortal beings to mortals. Thus, I don’t see “failure” in the story – but I easily can work within that language to agree with someone who phrases it that way. In the end, I think both views say the same thing about mortals needing to “fail” in order to succeed – even though our views about the other aspects of my first paragraph are radically different than what the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach.
Understanding The Garden of Eden purely as a symbolic representation is a paradigm shift of my understanding. That makes it hard to retain but easy to accept. Could I get away with sharing this understanding in a Gospel Doctrine class? Not that I would desire to, just wondering what the reaction would be.
Quote:Could I get away with sharing this understanding in a Gospel Doctrine class?
Depends on the class and the ward.
I can get away with it, since everyone knows by now that I see lots of things differently but am active and “faithful” – and don’t insist that my views are eternal, immutable Truth. If you phrase it as liking to consider lots of possibilities, see how other people view things (and having a friend who sees it that way), and if you say it contemplatively not dogmatically (like it’s the only true answer), you have a good chance of avoiding a negative reaction in most wards – as long as cwald’s High Councilor isn’t there to condemn you for not taking the Old Testament literally.
:silent: I’ve always seen the Eden story as a metaphor for childhood. You run around naked, have no sense of right and wrong, but then one day, you find you’re past that. Remember the tree was of the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore Adam and Eve could not have known one from the other without eating the fruit, the clue’s in the name.
But as rabbis have said, the first real sin was not eating the fruit, it was lying about it when God came along, because then they knew what they were doing, and consciously sinned.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Could I get away with sharing this understanding in a Gospel Doctrine class?
…If you phrase it as liking to consider lots of possibilities, see how other people view things (and having a friend who sees it that way),
I could really use a friend willing to explore.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Could I get away with sharing this understanding in a Gospel Doctrine class?
…If you phrase it as liking to consider lots of possibilities, see how other people view things (and having a friend who sees it that way), and if you say it contemplatively not dogmatically (like it’s the only true answer),
Well said.
Quote:I could really use a friend willing to explore.
You’ve got more than one here. Quote us to your heart’s content. Just don’t mention that you know us online. Some people are stupid in that regard and would discount the relationships we have here.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I could really use a friend willing to explore.
You’ve got more than one here. Quote us to your heart’s content. Just don’t mention that you know us online. Some people are stupid in that regard and would discount the relationships we have here.
Yep, I’m on to that.
Old-Timer wrote:(and having a friend who sees it that way), and if you say it contemplatively not dogmatically
Yeah, this seems to be the least threatening and confrontational way to say it. One advantage is that you don’t commit to a given position, if someone says that it is all literal then you have kept your personal feelings out of it. You might add that you enjoy talking to this friend because his symbolic interpretations allow for new meanings to be drawn out. I love talking about parables, visions, and allegories – because they have layers…like an onion!
Old-Timer wrote:“The Fall” is described as humanity’s departure from the presence of God, and Mormon theology teaches that it occurred by “following” Lucifer to this world.
If spiritual death is defined as being seperated from the presence of God would it not follow that we are currently in a state of spiritual death?
The Fall? Nah, never really got into that band. 😆
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